This post is to be meant to discuss the changes to run speed. I have copied TLoch's explanation below. There seems to be some misunderstanding about run speed and it's behavior. Here's the skinny on the situation. I hope it clears things up and gives you all an insight into why these changes are taking place and how they're a positive changes for the game. Run speed used to be a uniquely behaving ability effect, while all of the others behaved in the same way. Run speed used to circumvent common stacking rules in two ways. First, it stacked multiplicatively, rather than additively (I'll explain this in a moment), unlike every other buff effect in our game. Secondly, it didn't follow the same stacking rules that determines which abilities stack with which. First, the stacking rules. Stat modifiers come in two varieties--percentage stats and flat stats. Percentage mods only stack additively. What this means is that if you get a +10 bonus to accuracy (which is a percentage stat) and another +15 bonus to accuracy, your total accuracy bonus is 25%. When a percentage mod stacks multiplicatively, you're actually creating a logarithmic growth with every added stack, meaning that four +10s (totalling 146.41%) would be better than 1 +45 (totalling 145%). This spins out of control as you get higher and higher. Also given that no other ability effect works in this way, the decision was made to unify the behavior of ability effects for the sake clarity and consistency. Second, Vanguard has rules about which buffs stack with which. You noted that Seer's Intensity doesn't stack with Speed of the Pack. There is a reason why they don't that unfortunately isn't player facing. We hate that. Mechanics need to be player-facing if players are going to be able to make informed decisions about how to play the game. With run speed now functioning like everything else, we can now focus on fixing those irritating stacking rules--this is something you'll hear more about in the coming weeks and I'm sure at SOE Live. There is this short period of time where some things are getting nerfed and as we continue to improve the game's systems, you'll see some things also get buffed. In the end, the team's goal is to make the system easy to balance, easy to understand, and easy to build upon. I can't say anything too much about the specifics of the team's plans yet (you'll hear about them soon enough), but I at least want to emphasize the easy to build upon part. We're excited the most about that part.
Thank you, Rahtiz. We appreciate the communication attempts. Making changes that help the game's weird code perform correctly is a bonus to everyone, I'm sure. Though honestly, I'm less interested in how the speed stacks and more interested in how the new stacking has affected us. One thing I've always tried to strive for was making my characters fast - because I'm inherently impatient. I don't have a whole lot of free time and I've been in VG since launch. There's really nothing new for me to see or any reason I can't get from A to B in a reasonable amount of time. Going from 800 speed on a flying mount to 500 speed is a brutal nerf. If you're going to make these stacking changes, can you at least change the base mount speeds to something more like it was pre-change? Or if you want people to earn it, can you make the POTA Epic mounts fly at 400? 450? I haven't crunched the numbers but I think that would help significantly.
+1 for trying to fix things -5 for taking 400 away from my fly speed. The flying mounts really need to be addressed. Remember that low level flying mount quest that was talked about? whatever happened to that? Anyways it needs to be like: lockbox mounts (190) <= rented(190) < young griffon(250) < Wyvern(350) <= Raid Griffon(350) < PotA Flyer(400) or something similiar.
So here is my problem with the current changes, % buffs like crit damage, or crit chance, aren't actually % buffs, they are flat buffs which are calculated to be a percent based on level. With the percent going down the higher level you are. This is shown on the stat itself being an actual number not a percent. In fact only the number was shown originally and the percent based on your level was added in later. So them being additive makes sense and everything is fine. There are two different kinds of percent buffs, the ones I just mentioned and then for example the 5% adventuring attributes diplomacy buff. This second kind of % buff actually adds 5% to each attribute. I believe it adds 5% of your unbuffed stats, but I'm not sure. This is the kind of buff that the run speed percent buffs should be. If a run speed buff is 15% then it should add 15% of your BASE run speed, not 15 speed like it is doing now. This is why people are confused and upset. It would be like the 5% adventuring attributes diplomacy buff adding 5 to each stat instead of adding 5%.
I feel your pain Apa.. I just logged in after a month of AFK.. And my flight speed fully buffed was 1000+ now flying at 635? Weak sauce... And un mounted run speed seriously.. devs dont like sorcs kiting... Down to 200+? This is weak really weak... Give me back my run speed.. Or give me back my old chaos volley... Give me back something....
This isn't correct. Adventuring attributes are already a flat number (ie, 89 or something), so it can be modified flatly. Runspeed (as a stat) is a percentage (100% by default). That's the big difference. Everything modifies runspeed by a percentage. Vitality, Items, and Buffs all give percentage bonuses to runspeed, because runspeed is a percentage. If it were a flat modifier, the game would give you a certain number of meters per second. The flat meters per second by default is roughly five. Everything modifies that by a percentage, additively. Accuracy works the same way--items modify accuracy by a percentage (as in, an additive percentage bonus) because accuracy is a percentage already.
When an item attribute says +70 Mount Speed (Ground) How is that a percentage? If my base is 100, does that get converted to 1.7% so <base movement> * 1.7 = 170?
the bottom line is that everyone is now a lot slower, not a little bit whether running or mounted, or flying. how do define a lot? well every example I checked on all of my characters shows at least a 35% reduction compared to pre-nerf speeds. While I agree with the plan to change the calculation to one that is more arithmetic and predictable, the base speeds need adjusting so we all don't feel ripped off after acquiring gear, items, potions, etc to get us where we felt we needed to be. And, on behalf of sorcs (even ones that don't kite). This still smells like another slap at kiting which has been a part of SOE mmo's for years now. why does the VG team feel the need to keep slapping it down? Just boost the base value and let quested mounts be faster than SC , lockbox mounts and this bitter pill may go down easier.
100% of what? Your base run speed I guess, but we have no way of knowing what that is, so it's confusing. If it listed meters per second on the mount tab then that would make more sense. What would be even better is if it listed your base run speed in something like meters per second and then listed your percents, split out into buffs, mounts, items would be nice, and then listed your current run speed. So we could have a solid number to reference what our speed was instead of a percent. It's also confusing like Zewtastic pointed out that all the mounts and mount items like horseshoes and tack don't have a % listed on them, they are listed as ground and mounted speed. That may just be a display issue, but still confusing. The difference with the items is that it is an Accuracy "rating" and the percent changes based on what level you are. The % run speed on an item is not a "rating" and doesn't change based on what level you are. It may all be a percent once it gets applied, but it's listed on the item as a "rating" number with a percent after it that changes. Originally the percent wasn't shown to us and was added because the number is arbitrary and it wasn't apparent exactly what we were getting from it. And my point from that was that 15% run speed seems arbitrary because it isn't apparent exactly what we are getting from it. I think the other issue is that when we all think of base run speed for unmounted speed that the percent modifies we assume that it is different per character based on vitality. I know that's not the case, but it seems like it should be to me. It makes sense to me that not everyone runs at the same speed, hence the vitality stat giving run speed and making characters run at different speeds, it's more realistic. It also makes sense to me that a buff that gives someone with a high vitality 15% run speed would get more out of it than someone with a lower vitality because the character with a higher vitality runs faster, so 15% for them would be more. Hence why I keep bringing up "base" run speed, thinking that someone with a higher vitality will have a higher base run speed and the percents will modify it more.
The fact remains that we have lost speed, and not just 5 or 10 or even 15%. The history of this game shows that once we lose something, even if there is an implied or explicit promise to bring it back, that rarely happens (witness the no-lev effect at SoD and the item clicky cooldown debacle). Even when we get things back (see bard drum mod) it's often tied to something distasteful (like the present run speed nerf). It's no wonder that players are suspicious and unhappy. Rahtiz said "There is this short period of time where some things are getting nerfed and as we continue to improve the game's systems, you'll see some things also get buffed." Much as I'd like to buy into this, if my boss came to me and said, "Yeah, I'm gonna need you to take a pay cut and start working Saturdays, but don't worry, we're doing this so we can afford to give you a raise" I'd say to him, "Money talks, BS walks." Please don't decrease our present enjoyment of this game with vague promises for future improvements.
@Tloch: responding here to your post in the run speed thread in general chat I don't know how it actually works behind the scenes. I can only speak for what actually happens in game: Pre-change Post-change base (100) 100 100 Mount (+305) 305 305 Horseshoes (+50) 50 50 Tack (+10) 10 10 Saddlebag (+10) 10 10 Total base speed 475 475 Shadowy Veil (+15%) 15% 15% Total actual increase 71.25 15 Total Speed 546.25 490 As you can see, before the change the basic numbers for mounted speed summed up via addition and the player speed buffs increased it by a percentage (ie, multiplied by 1.15). After the change, the buff now either adds +15 to the total speed OR adds +15% of 100 to the speed (ie, ignoring mount etc). This change obviously applies to other buffs but I have just used my own buff in order to demonstrate.
At least its now consistent with how other stats work, ie apply percentage first, then add flat bonus. With your exemple : (100 * 1.15) + 305 + 50 +10 + 10 = 490 To my knowledge, damage already works like this : ((base weapon dmg + weapon dmg buff) * (% attack modifier) ) + damage rating = your damage
yes damage civics are flat buffs in that 8%, 5% and 7% stack to 20% total. They stack to your actual damage, however, not your BASE damage. The frustration isn't the method of calculation though, it is the massive reduction in run & flight speed
Please forgive me if I'm simply repeating what anyone else may have asked or stated. Where do I find or how can I know my "base" speed that these additive percentages get calculated on? Is it always 100 for everyone? Because if it is 100 then (and this is where I start to repeat others) your percentages will seem like flat +speed amounts on every character. It feels like my "base" is being calculated as 100 for percentage buffs. Tried different configurations of gear, with and without only ranger (my own) buffs and Speed of the Tempest I's +54% Movement Speed is giving me a flat change of +54 speed no matter what. 144 speed unbuffed goes to 198 buffed and I don't have a bunch of extra items that grant speed. Only Kamelott Crystal Cog Band and Griffon Watch Insignia and some Vitality from a couple pieces of gear. I guess the whole sticking point is what is "base" speed on characters?
Vitality bonus should add to your base along with other few things like griffon neck. It would maybe ease the trouble if they could do this.
Maybe with these run speed nerfs we can have the ridiculous speed nerfs in areas removed? Why can we only move 127 in pota, cob, and why are we reduced in speed by Tharridon?
Finally? Please NO! That grind was bad enough in eq1 and even worse in eq2 IF I wanted that kind of effin AA time sink, I'd go back to eq1. If these fixes mean the overall game will run smoother and better, just get it over with, and without making more false promises to "make it up to the players". Though, I do think that future content do need these fixes to allow for expansion into the higher levels.
