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I just want to bring this up while it's on my mind and I'm fairly certain Kilsin wants to comment on this as well.

The original way of making rogue poisons was very cool and many of us enjoyed that aspect. What we didn't really like about it was how clunky the system was, and how much it cost a rogue (out of pocket) to make the stuff as well.

Then they changed it after we asked for some changes, but instead of listening to us they made it ten times worse.

Before I start, the newbie rogue starter bag had to be used in a normal bag slot. This was not cool. I think any classes that have class defining mats should have a specialty bag or something that can hold them. I know Necros and BMs got bags for this on the ammo slot. Before I whined on the forums, the first one available to rogues was Fengrot's belt (Which is not a beginner raiding mob either). Finally they added the rogue belt to the MH loot table, but you still had to be level 48 or something to wear it.

I'd suggest making all medium belts as 'rogue and ranger' friendly by making them bags for rogue poisons and ranger fletching items.

Also while I'm at it, the Fun with Lint book is essential for rogue soloing. With the population we're going to have, I think this is going to be a necessary evil for people wanting to play rogues. It doesn't need to be so stupidly rare that it's worth 25 plat when someone found it. (The original system). But it doesn't need to be so stupidly popular that people find it after 10 minutes of pick pocketing either.

Original system: Rogues had poison mats and they had skillups. So you had to sit there at a crafting table and craft poisons. You needed about 3-4 different items per poison if I recall right. Once you hit a certain skill level, (or adv level as well) you could make more advanced stuff. When you used weapon poison or the Vampire Scroll, it only used up one poison/scroll and lasted for a certain duration. Most of them were 15 minutes. One of the irritations of this system was that the items didn't stack very high and you had to use a crafting table to make it. Increasing the stack size and allowing rogues to make it on the fly would be the most helpful changes.

New system: You have to buy it at an extraordinarily expensive rate without any way of recouping those costs without mindless, ridiculous grinding. (I believe that we calculated it out to being about 10g/hr for a raiding rogue). You just buy the end product poisons and apply them in macros or to your weapons or whatever. With the new system everytime the poison proc'd, it took one of the poisons from your inventory. So if it proc'd 50 times in a fight, that was 50 poisons.

I don't think any rogue was entirely happy with the old system, but I can tell you that no rogue liked the new system. IF I can find our original suggestions for the changes to the poison system, I'll post those. Kilsin, your turn! Go!

I couldn't agree more Jak, we had many discussions about this on the forums and I think for the most part, we all agree that the old system was better than the new but the old system needs work to balance and tweak it a bit more, I would happily contribute to any discussions down the track on helping to make the Rogue poison/flechette/pickpocket system better.

I love your idea about medium belts for Rogues AND Rangers, I never played a Ranger past level 18 but I know many Rangers who would love this change for their arrows and scavenged items/clickies.

I have scrapped the VG official forums and will try to look through them when I get a chance over the next few days to find some of the suggestions a few of us put forward, there were some good ones.

I think it would be fun to make rogue and ranger assembly more like a "new style" crafting system like you see in many new games. So you don't makes poison darts from things you loot from mobs or pickpocket, but instead you combine the loot to make things like dart tips, binding resin, twined gnome hair, etc... which you then can combine to other things.
Some of the more advanced items could even require drops from raid mobs and components made by high end crafters.
I hope that the assembly table system is flexible enough to do this kind of thing without client modifications.

[quote="Kilsin"]
I love your idea about medium belts for Rogues AND Rangers, I never played a Ranger past level 18 but I know many Rangers who would love this change for their arrows and scavenged items/clickies.
[/quote]

Let's add bards to this too. They had a ton of instruments they had to carry around. It would be nice if they could put that in their belt too. I know that sounds silly, putting a drum in a belt, but we can keep galleons in our pockets so why not?

[quote="Jakkal"][quote="Kilsin"]
I love your idea about medium belts for Rogues AND Rangers, I never played a Ranger past level 18 but I know many Rangers who would love this change for their arrows and scavenged items/clickies.
[/quote]

Let's add bards to this too. They had a ton of instruments they had to carry around. It would be nice if they could put that in their belt too. I know that sounds silly, putting a drum in a belt, but we can keep galleons in our pockets so why not?[/quote]

We may as well add those stinky Monks to and make it all light fighters, because they probably wouldn't mind the shuriken space but in return, we nerf their dps lol ahh ok I'm joking but seriously...Rogues back to #1 please!

[quote="Jakkal"]With the new system everytime the poison proc'd, it took one of the poisons from your inventory. So if it proc'd 50 times in a fight, that was 50 poisons.[/quote]

This made me want to kick puppies, and it needs fixed.

Seems like every medium dps class got beat within inches of oblivion by a metal-plated nerf bat, multiple times, but I'd definitely have to say rogues got hit the hardest. Losing DPS really pales in comparison to losing functionality.

The idea for a belt pouch for poisons is great. That frees up a wasted bag slot. Shurikens and arrows already have a home in the ammo pouch of rangers and monks, but I can imagine a belt pouch as a nice place to store foraged/fletching components for my ranger - even if I'd have to manually start a stack in the belt pouch to get items to go there.

Honestly, I'd love to see rogues get extra storage in their belts just for poisons, even if rangers and monks get nothing. From a roleplay standpoint, it fits, and they need that option. Now let me add emphasis to that statement by saying that my favorite class is ranger, followed closely by monk.

Smoke bomb also was broken in the end, too. You could no longer move out of LoS and use it to go stealth again. Even if you were behind a wall, directly behind a mob that was being tanked, Smoke Bomb would state that it couldn't be used while actively engaged with a mob. If you got aggro for any reason and lost stealth, flee/escape were your only options to go stealth again, aside waiting for everything in camp to die. Flee/Escape were meant as last resorts to completely dump aggro, and had a long cooldown. Smoke Bomb didn't dump aggro, but would allow you to re-stealth in combat if you weren't actively engaged. That definitely needs fixed - not being able to stealth is a perma-nerf to a rogue's dps.

The smoke bomb thing was one of the reasons I stopped playing my rogue. Everything broke stealth. Clickies broke stealth. If you get hit with an AOE that breaks stealth, you cannot get back into stealth unless you 'escape'. It was such bullshit. They really broke that class.

Another thing that annoyed me was that the backstab attacks wouldn't work at all from the front. I understand that they wouldn't be nearly as effective from the front. But let's say the mob turns and you're in the middle of your attack. Why would your rogue pull the daggers away at the last minute and go "Whoa, that's not your back, I don't know how to stab that." I always felt like the backstab should still work, you'd just get a serious DPS penalty if you weren't behind the mob.

The smoke bomb was extremely annoying.

The frontal damage not working at all with daggers was just unrealistic, I would of been happy with a 50% main hand and 25% offhand damage limit, so at least we did something but 0 damage and not able to use anything we learned was just dumb.

[quote="Jakkal"]I always felt like the backstab should still work, you'd just get a serious DPS penalty if you weren't behind the mob.[/quote]

That's similar to what I'd expect (hope for). I would see it as a base damage attack from the front, small bonus from the flank (if possible), and a huge damage bonus from behind, with modifiers for stealth, of course.

I absolutely hated ending up in a group with a bouncy DK as the tank. It seemed like the tank knew when my good crit chain was ready, and would warp just as I clicked it. It wasn't that the attack didn't work, it just wouldn't land, so you'd still be waiting on the cooldown. I wish the crit chains refused to work like backstab. All those wasted attacks...

[quote="Deltharien"][quote="Jakkal"]I always felt like the backstab should still work, you'd just get a serious DPS penalty if you weren't behind the mob.[/quote]

That's similar to what I'd expect (hope for). I would see it as a base damage attack from the front, small bonus from the flank (if possible), and a huge damage bonus from behind, with modifiers for stealth, of course.

I absolutely hated ending up in a group with a bouncy DK as the tank. It seemed like the tank knew when my good crit chain was ready, and would warp just as I clicked it. It wasn't that the attack didn't work, it just wouldn't land, so you'd still be waiting on the cooldown. I wish the crit chains refused to work like backstab. All those wasted attacks...[/quote]

Yeah my husband played a DK and we duo'd between my rogue and his DK all the way up to 55. I forced him to tell me when he was jumping so I could jump at the same time and not ruin my crits. (Especially in fights where we had no healer and I really had to kill it quick).