VGOEmulator.net

If I recall correctly, One thing crafting never had, was the ability to remove complications via keystroke commands/macros. I believe this was done to help curb botting (You physically had to click the complication removal thing that you wanted to click.) I understand if the dev team wants to keep this as is to prevent botting, as that's a really big deal on live MMOs. I'm unsure if it would be a big issue on emulated MMOs. But I figured I'd ask anyway. Would it be possible to make crafting complication commands so we can macro them or put them into keystroke commands?

I only ask this because I'm an RSI sufferer, and having to move the mouse over to the complication tab while grinding would get to be strain inducing repetitive. It would be nice if we could just use a keystroke instead of moving the mouse.

The commands were in the game, but they were never implemented. Back in the early days of VG I was a serious crafter, and I developed repetitive stress disorder from mousing around to remove complications. I had almost everything else down to keyboard shortcuts, but the complications were a pain -- literally. I had to stop playing for almost three months before my mouse hand recovered, and I could play without agony. I /bugged the unimplemented commands, and asked about it a number of times in the forums, but never got so much as a acknowledgement.

So, yes, I would love to see the commands implemented.

I was letting this one sit until others chimed in, but only shargash so far so here's my input. First, a question: how would the command work? Similar to /cast "name"? I'm assuming Complication removal was not an actual spell/ability in your book (like it is in EQ2). We can create any "dot" (GM) commands we wish, but there is only one concern as you mentioned: botting

Now, by some miracle if New Telon does become the amazingly popular place to play Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (meaning, it goes beyond a simple dev/test server or a place to .rift to anywhere you want to go) and a >real< economy is required, I cannot see giving "cheaters" a leg up to screw the economy - though I suppose in reality, if they want to find a way, they will regardless.

Thoughts on that? Go into "wishful thinking" mode and think about the global impact of cheaters.

Everything in crafting could be done with keystrokes except the complication removal buttons, you had to actually click on them. I think this was to prevent bots specifically from sitting there and crafting nonstop. I'm sure there are some better solutions to stop bots.

Going on memory here, which isn't entirely reliable, that all the crafting commands started with /craft, such as "/craftingaddsecondary" and "/craftingselectstep 2" So if we were to add it for the emulator, I imagine the command would be something like /craftingremovecomplication followed by a number: eg: /craftingremovecomplication 3

Nothing crafting wise was a spell/ability in the books except for the recipes themselves (And even then it only just told you what was needed). It was at the crafting table, the minigame that the commands and 'crafting abilities' were used. For crafting there were steps and actions. I made a graphic based on some in game screenshots I could find.

Brilliant, thank you for the screen shot and walk through. Give it some thought and tell me your thoughts on the "economy" part of my response; I'd like to know what this community thinks of their world economy - if any. I remember hearing SOE haters saying the VG Economy was a joke to begin with, but maybe you players know better.

The actual commands were:

• /craftingselectremedy
  /craftingselectremedyaction [/list:u]
  
  They removed them from /listcommands crafting at some point, but they were there in the beginning. Because they were never implemented, I can't say exactly how they were supposed to work. However, by analogy to /craftingselectstep and /craftingselectaction, I presume you would do something like this:
  
  /craftingselectremedy # (which would usually be 1, but there could be up to 3 complications present)
  /craftingselectremedyaction # (which could be 1-5; there could be up to 5 remedy actions for a given complication.
  
  As to bots, sophisticated botters use screen position and simulate mouse clicks in the appropriate area. Vanguard put the complication name in the chat log, so it would have been relatively simple to program a bot to click in the right areas for a given complication. To foil that kind of bot you need to move the crafting windows around randomly. VG didn't do that (I used to pre-position the mouse whenever I could to help with my repetitive stress issues). VG did have the work order givers wander around a bit, which presumably was intended to foil botters trying to PL their crafter.
  
  In any case, I don't think the "select remedy" commands were removed because of concerns about botting. Like AAs and Inquisitors, I think they intended to implement them and just never did, then removed all evidence.
  
  Vanguard's economy worked very well, and I'd hate to see botting wreck it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure there were botters in Vanguard, and it didn't wreck the economy. My main was a tailor (the first outfitter to hit level 40 on the Florendyl server), and I used to charge 3-5g for a top tier bag in the early days. Years into Vanguard, they were still selling for 2-3g, which is remarkable price stability for a game. IMO, the only reason the price deteriorated late in Vanguard was because of SOE's actions (first, plat selling on LiveGamer, then selling mounts from the boxes).
  
  I guess the real question is whether making removing complications easier lowers the barrier to botting such that people will start to bot in VGEmu. I would be surprised if it did. And I would think a more effective anti-botting measure would be to limit text information sent to the client. That would force a bot to read the graphic area of a screen to know that there was a complication, or that the recipe had moved to the next step. That's what a human does. I hardly ever looked at the chat log when crafting.

[quote="shargash"]And I would think a more effective anti-botting measure would be to limit text information sent to the client. That would force a bot to read the graphic area of a screen to know that there was a complication, or that the recipe had moved to the next step. That's what a human does. I hardly ever looked at the chat log when crafting.[/quote]
This would be a very acceptable alternative, thank you. We'll add this convo to the list of things to consider as customizations down the road.

I checked the paper users guide that came with the game, and it directed me to the Vanguard\bin\help directory, and lo!, there are the commands. Here are the contents for the missing commands:

• FORMAT: /craftingselectremedy <number>
  
  Select the crafting remedy family in the crafting complications window that corresponds with number, counting from the left in the UI.
  
  FORMAT: /craftingselectremedyaction <number>
  
  Execute the crafting remedy in the crafting remedies window that corresponds with number, counting from the left in the UI.[/list:u]
  
  I lost track of a lot of my screenshots, but I did find this one from February, 2007(!!) that shows both the complication window and the kind of information that was displayed in chat.

Yeah I can't really imagine that botting would hurt the market too much. But the market kinda got messed up by exploits unrelated to crafting (like duplicating gold) and the end game market that required massive amounts of money to get POTA gear. Not to mention the augment market was huge. And then there was Live Gamer that allowed people to trade RL money for In game gold.

Crafted gear, in general, wasn't as good as adventuring gear. I think if anything, the devs might not have wanted people to bot as an easy way to end-game crafting.

All and all, I don't think adding this would hurt the economy any, and it would help crafters quite a bit. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'm sure we can find another way, such as Shargash's suggestions, to stop the botters.

[quote="John Adams"]Brilliant, thank you for the screen shot and walk through. Give it some thought and tell me your thoughts on the "economy" part of my response; I'd like to know what this community thinks of their world economy - if any. I remember hearing SOE haters saying the VG Economy was a joke to begin with, but maybe you players know better.[/quote]

Any economy that is not build about durabilityloss on use and the removal of the item after durability hits 0 is broken by design. Additions of Bind on equip and bind on pickup only slows the inevitebal snowballing of a topheavy system.

The bot i used in the final days was very powerfull, it could get stuck or into a loop but usually i could leave it running overnight without issues
To slowdown craft botting, a fatique system similiar to the hated archeage labor could be introduced serverside. Nobody grinds craftorders for 8 hours straight whos not a bot