Closed Source Question
Moderator: Community Managers
Closed Source Question
On the SVN page it says as of Nov 2015 this project is now closed source.
[quote] This change is meant to focus developer attention on the main project until our goals are achieved[/quote]
I am not sure I understand what this means. Why does being closed source mean there's more attention on the main project? What is defined as "the main project"? What goals are you hoping to achieve before releasing the source again? I assume there are plans to be open source again eventually?
I am not sure I understand the desire to hold on to the code so tightly unless you decided you want to reuse some/much of it for a commercial purpose later on. It seems like it would only serve to scare away potential new developers. I was hoping to play around with the code base and try to get familiar with it, but that's obviously no longer an option.
[quote] This change is meant to focus developer attention on the main project until our goals are achieved[/quote]
I am not sure I understand what this means. Why does being closed source mean there's more attention on the main project? What is defined as "the main project"? What goals are you hoping to achieve before releasing the source again? I assume there are plans to be open source again eventually?
I am not sure I understand the desire to hold on to the code so tightly unless you decided you want to reuse some/much of it for a commercial purpose later on. It seems like it would only serve to scare away potential new developers. I was hoping to play around with the code base and try to get familiar with it, but that's obviously no longer an option.
Re: VGOEmu Progress
In general it means that all of us have built up all the code through a tremendous group effort, and if someone is interested in development, they do it within the realm of what we are working on. The main issue with open source is that someone can jump in with a majority of the code done, take our work in-progress, and then spend time working on their own version. In many cases that would be ok, but people were doing that and not contributing back to our project in any meaningful way. If we had a huge supply of devs, then no problem. But with limited resources, it's just not fair to us to "give away" our work for no benefit. And, in fact, it's not a lot of fun having people keep grabbing our latest version to fill in the gaps in their version, particularly when that means answering forum posts about why something isn't working for them, or criticizing us on the forums for how we are going about things that are technically 'in-progress'. We don't want to have to support other people working on splintered versions. We can barely support ourselves!
The main project in this sense is our Vanguard Emulator. The one that we are all working on, to create a working server that replicates the Vanguard experience, along with all the necessary scripting to bring quests, npcs, spells, etc. to life. The one you see when you log into New Telon.
A good (cynical) answer to your question would be, "Why should we care if you are allowed to play around with our code base? What benefit does it provide us?" Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing! We certainly don't owe anybody that privilege.
If the answer is, "I could probably make some improvements, add some things, problem-solve. I won't know until I try." then great! Just let us know your background, your intents, and we can give you access to some or all of the code. That's how it works. It shouldn't scare you away. You aren't tied to the New Telon server. You can compile it and run your own server for testing. That's what we do. It's a bit tricky to set it all up, particularly with setting up the database and proper internal networking, but that's what us devs have done. There have been a number of pleas on these forums for C++ devs to get involved and message one of the devs or make a post asking how to get involved.
If the answer is, "I am entitled to it.", then you can see why that wouldn't go over well. That's part of how we ended up with this decision. We're adults with a limited amount of free time, have invested ourselves in making this happen, are professionals, and prefer to work with other people who have respect and the same desires. I wasn't here when it started, but it started with a completely blank new Visual Studio project. It is literally from nothing. When I came on board you could log in and run around. That was about it. Even that backbone of work just to get to that point is mind-boggling, and we have come a long way since then.
We are in need of people who want to help out. In the past, a new dev would be given access to the code and help setting everything up, and then pick a small task to work on to prove that they can work in a group project without screwing everyone up. If that sounds reasonable, send Xinux a message. There's no obligation; you can certainly play around and decide it is not worth your time. That is perfectly fine.
I don't know what the open source goals will be eventually. There's a reason these types of games take years of work, even from a large full-time team. We are thrilled as Vanguard-lovers to be adding new features and content at a regular pace, but it could be faster with more help. We have and will continue to add many server customizations so that if one wants a turn-key solution to running a server (which is now available) they can customize it to their liking. The underlying code is set up in a way that most all variables and behavior come from either the database or scripts, and the client is locked down and not available for modification (no available source code), so there's not a lot that someone could do with the code once the game is complete that would be all that interesting, other than making it run better.
The main project in this sense is our Vanguard Emulator. The one that we are all working on, to create a working server that replicates the Vanguard experience, along with all the necessary scripting to bring quests, npcs, spells, etc. to life. The one you see when you log into New Telon.
A good (cynical) answer to your question would be, "Why should we care if you are allowed to play around with our code base? What benefit does it provide us?" Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing! We certainly don't owe anybody that privilege.
If the answer is, "I could probably make some improvements, add some things, problem-solve. I won't know until I try." then great! Just let us know your background, your intents, and we can give you access to some or all of the code. That's how it works. It shouldn't scare you away. You aren't tied to the New Telon server. You can compile it and run your own server for testing. That's what we do. It's a bit tricky to set it all up, particularly with setting up the database and proper internal networking, but that's what us devs have done. There have been a number of pleas on these forums for C++ devs to get involved and message one of the devs or make a post asking how to get involved.
If the answer is, "I am entitled to it.", then you can see why that wouldn't go over well. That's part of how we ended up with this decision. We're adults with a limited amount of free time, have invested ourselves in making this happen, are professionals, and prefer to work with other people who have respect and the same desires. I wasn't here when it started, but it started with a completely blank new Visual Studio project. It is literally from nothing. When I came on board you could log in and run around. That was about it. Even that backbone of work just to get to that point is mind-boggling, and we have come a long way since then.
We are in need of people who want to help out. In the past, a new dev would be given access to the code and help setting everything up, and then pick a small task to work on to prove that they can work in a group project without screwing everyone up. If that sounds reasonable, send Xinux a message. There's no obligation; you can certainly play around and decide it is not worth your time. That is perfectly fine.
I don't know what the open source goals will be eventually. There's a reason these types of games take years of work, even from a large full-time team. We are thrilled as Vanguard-lovers to be adding new features and content at a regular pace, but it could be faster with more help. We have and will continue to add many server customizations so that if one wants a turn-key solution to running a server (which is now available) they can customize it to their liking. The underlying code is set up in a way that most all variables and behavior come from either the database or scripts, and the client is locked down and not available for modification (no available source code), so there's not a lot that someone could do with the code once the game is complete that would be all that interesting, other than making it run better.
Re: VGOEmu Progress
[quote="zippyzee"]In general it means that all of us have built up all the code through a tremendous group effort, and if someone is interested in development, they do it within the realm of what we are working on. The main issue with open source is that someone can jump in with a majority of the code done, take our work in-progress, and then spend time working on their own version. In many cases that would be ok, but people were doing that and not contributing back to our project in any meaningful way. If we had a huge supply of devs, then no problem. But with limited resources, it's just not fair to us to "give away" our work for no benefit. And, in fact, it's not a lot of fun having people keep grabbing our latest version to fill in the gaps in their version, particularly when that means answering forum posts about why something isn't working for them, or criticizing us on the forums for how we are going about things that are technically 'in-progress'. We don't want to have to support other people working on splintered versions. We can barely support ourselves!
The main project in this sense is our Vanguard Emulator. The one that we are all working on, to create a working server that replicates the Vanguard experience, along with all the necessary scripting to bring quests, npcs, spells, etc. to life. The one you see when you log into New Telon.
A good (cynical) answer to your question would be, "Why should we care if you are allowed to play around with our code base? What benefit does it provide us?" Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing! We certainly don't owe anybody that privilege.
If the answer is, "I could probably make some improvements, add some things, problem-solve. I won't know until I try." then great! Just let us know your background, your intents, and we can give you access to some or all of the code. That's how it works. It shouldn't scare you away. You aren't tied to the New Telon server. You can compile it and run your own server for testing. That's what we do. It's a bit tricky to set it all up, particularly with setting up the database and proper internal networking, but that's what us devs have done. There have been a number of pleas on these forums for C++ devs to get involved and message one of the devs or make a post asking how to get involved.
If the answer is, "I am entitled to it.", then you can see why that wouldn't go over well. That's part of how we ended up with this decision. We're adults with a limited amount of free time, have invested ourselves in making this happen, are professionals, and prefer to work with other people who have respect and the same desires. I wasn't here when it started, but it started with a completely blank new Visual Studio project. It is literally from nothing. When I came on board you could log in and run around. That was about it. Even that backbone of work just to get to that point is mind-boggling, and we have come a long way since then.
We are in need of people who want to help out. In the past, a new dev would be given access to the code and help setting everything up, and then pick a small task to work on to prove that they can work in a group project without screwing everyone up. If that sounds reasonable, send Xinux a message. There's no obligation; you can certainly play around and decide it is not worth your time. That is perfectly fine.
I don't know what the open source goals will be eventually. There's a reason these types of games take years of work, even from a large full-time team. We are thrilled as Vanguard-lovers to be adding new features and content at a regular pace, but it could be faster with more help. We have and will continue to add many server customizations so that if one wants a turn-key solution to running a server (which is now available) they can customize it to their liking. The underlying code is set up in a way that most all variables and behavior come from either the database or scripts, and the client is locked down and not available for modification (no available source code), so there's not a lot that someone could do with the code once the game is complete that would be all that interesting, other than making it run better.[/quote]
It's really shitty to accept free help and community involvement on a project, then to turn around and say you own the entirety of what has been produced and no one has any right to even access it unless you explicitly authorize it. Those aren't the terms under which a lot of people contributed to this project, and your sense of entitlement over those contributions isn't any better than the sense of entitlement from other people you expressed frustration over.
Saying stuff like this:
[quote]Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing![/quote]
really drives home the toxic attitude you have about this project and its community. Exploring and tinkering with a code base is the foundation of much of the open source development community. Many of the tools and technology you are using this very second, and have used on this project, have largely been successfully due to what you call unappealing.
If you wanted complete ownership and control over the project, it shouldn't have been made open source to begin with, and it shouldn't have accepted free help under the guise of being what people expect from open source projects.
I have no intention of persuading you or the other members that endorsed the close source decision. It's obvious your morality on the issue differs drastically from my own. However, know you have created a tremendous amount of ill will in at least potential contributor, and I suspect you will continue to push away people wanting to help with the attitude you have towards this community.
The main project in this sense is our Vanguard Emulator. The one that we are all working on, to create a working server that replicates the Vanguard experience, along with all the necessary scripting to bring quests, npcs, spells, etc. to life. The one you see when you log into New Telon.
A good (cynical) answer to your question would be, "Why should we care if you are allowed to play around with our code base? What benefit does it provide us?" Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing! We certainly don't owe anybody that privilege.
If the answer is, "I could probably make some improvements, add some things, problem-solve. I won't know until I try." then great! Just let us know your background, your intents, and we can give you access to some or all of the code. That's how it works. It shouldn't scare you away. You aren't tied to the New Telon server. You can compile it and run your own server for testing. That's what we do. It's a bit tricky to set it all up, particularly with setting up the database and proper internal networking, but that's what us devs have done. There have been a number of pleas on these forums for C++ devs to get involved and message one of the devs or make a post asking how to get involved.
If the answer is, "I am entitled to it.", then you can see why that wouldn't go over well. That's part of how we ended up with this decision. We're adults with a limited amount of free time, have invested ourselves in making this happen, are professionals, and prefer to work with other people who have respect and the same desires. I wasn't here when it started, but it started with a completely blank new Visual Studio project. It is literally from nothing. When I came on board you could log in and run around. That was about it. Even that backbone of work just to get to that point is mind-boggling, and we have come a long way since then.
We are in need of people who want to help out. In the past, a new dev would be given access to the code and help setting everything up, and then pick a small task to work on to prove that they can work in a group project without screwing everyone up. If that sounds reasonable, send Xinux a message. There's no obligation; you can certainly play around and decide it is not worth your time. That is perfectly fine.
I don't know what the open source goals will be eventually. There's a reason these types of games take years of work, even from a large full-time team. We are thrilled as Vanguard-lovers to be adding new features and content at a regular pace, but it could be faster with more help. We have and will continue to add many server customizations so that if one wants a turn-key solution to running a server (which is now available) they can customize it to their liking. The underlying code is set up in a way that most all variables and behavior come from either the database or scripts, and the client is locked down and not available for modification (no available source code), so there's not a lot that someone could do with the code once the game is complete that would be all that interesting, other than making it run better.[/quote]
It's really shitty to accept free help and community involvement on a project, then to turn around and say you own the entirety of what has been produced and no one has any right to even access it unless you explicitly authorize it. Those aren't the terms under which a lot of people contributed to this project, and your sense of entitlement over those contributions isn't any better than the sense of entitlement from other people you expressed frustration over.
Saying stuff like this:
[quote]Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing![/quote]
really drives home the toxic attitude you have about this project and its community. Exploring and tinkering with a code base is the foundation of much of the open source development community. Many of the tools and technology you are using this very second, and have used on this project, have largely been successfully due to what you call unappealing.
If you wanted complete ownership and control over the project, it shouldn't have been made open source to begin with, and it shouldn't have accepted free help under the guise of being what people expect from open source projects.
I have no intention of persuading you or the other members that endorsed the close source decision. It's obvious your morality on the issue differs drastically from my own. However, know you have created a tremendous amount of ill will in at least potential contributor, and I suspect you will continue to push away people wanting to help with the attitude you have towards this community.
Re: VGOEmu Progress
The staff actually voted on it. It wasn't one person's decision. One of the major issues we were running into were people taking the code and trying to set up their own servers, just to realize it's not complete and then ask for help to build things that our guys were working on as well. It had two real problems: #1. It was no longer a team effort at that point, as the people making their own changes were no longer contributing back to the project. #2. It was taking away the time of our developers, who have limited free time to work on the game as it is, to stop and answer questions of people (And some angry accusations) about why certain things wouldn't work, how to set it up etc.
So we decided that the game in its current state would only be available to those that help contribute to it. This is not a toxic attitude, on the contrary, demanding the work that these guy put into it and never contributing back is, well, quite frankly a dick move.
Please understand that we've been burned on this issue, and others, in our time working on it. It hurts our progress when we have to concern ourselves with this. None of us are getting paid here, and we're all under the threat of seeing our work go to shit if Daybreak ever decided to pull the plug on us. Regardless of Daybreak's current stance on emulators right now, that could change at any point in the future.
I also believe that in the future that we might release the code to the public. But right now we need to keep it under wraps so those that volunteer to help will be the ones that can use the code currently.
So we decided that the game in its current state would only be available to those that help contribute to it. This is not a toxic attitude, on the contrary, demanding the work that these guy put into it and never contributing back is, well, quite frankly a dick move.
Please understand that we've been burned on this issue, and others, in our time working on it. It hurts our progress when we have to concern ourselves with this. None of us are getting paid here, and we're all under the threat of seeing our work go to shit if Daybreak ever decided to pull the plug on us. Regardless of Daybreak's current stance on emulators right now, that could change at any point in the future.
I also believe that in the future that we might release the code to the public. But right now we need to keep it under wraps so those that volunteer to help will be the ones that can use the code currently.
Re: VGOEmu Progress
From another forum where i was asked the same thing.
[quote]@Xinux are/will you ever make the core public? Repacks, private servers, etc.[/quote]
Yes at some point we will it has always been our plan to release a repack and allow access directly to the code. That has not changed only put on a temporary hold till it is in a more developed state.
[quote]@Xinux are/will you ever make the core public? Repacks, private servers, etc.[/quote]
Yes at some point we will it has always been our plan to release a repack and allow access directly to the code. That has not changed only put on a temporary hold till it is in a more developed state.
Re: VGOEmu Progress
[quote="brynn"]
It's really shitty to accept free help and community involvement on a project, then to turn around and say you own the entirety of what has been produced and no one has any right to even access it unless you explicitly authorize it. Those aren't the terms under which a lot of people contributed to this project, and your sense of entitlement over those contributions isn't any better than the sense of entitlement from other people you expressed frustration over.
Saying stuff like this:
[quote]Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing![/quote]
really drives home the toxic attitude you have about this project and its community. Exploring and tinkering with a code base is the foundation of much of the open source development community. Many of the tools and technology you are using this very second, and have used on this project, have largely been successfully due to what you call unappealing.
If you wanted complete ownership and control over the project, it shouldn't have been made open source to begin with, and it shouldn't have accepted free help under the guise of being what people expect from open source projects.
I have no intention of persuading you or the other members that endorsed the close source decision. It's obvious your morality on the issue differs drastically from my own. However, know you have created a tremendous amount of ill will in at least potential contributor, and I suspect you will continue to push away people wanting to help with the attitude you have towards this community.[/quote]
This is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. You have zero idea what you are talking about here. I gave you a very reasonable explanation about how we came to that agreement. I am not in charge of this project, and never have been. I have personally invested hundreds of hours working on this for zero personal gain, other than the satisfaction of trying to bring this game back to life. As I mentioned, I have been here since you could do nothing but walk around the world. I know everyone who was involved at that time, and know who was involved before that. I AM the free help that built this game. Do you not know that? Did you build items, equipment, inventory, banking, mail, broker, npc movement, combat, quests, vendors, loot, diplomacy, etc? I did. Did you build spells, work on the Lua system, among other things? Faux did. Did you work on the underlying structure, decode the packets, and fill in as many parts as possible? Xinux and Lokked did. Did you build the database, the website, and spend half of each of your days trying to make this work? John Adams did. Did you set up the NPC AI and dialog and numerous other systems? Volt did. I don't recall seeing you at any point, and you have 2 forum posts starting today. What big help were you that you feel so ripped off? We shouldn't feel any entitlement to our code for what reason? We are completely entitled to it; we made it!
Who helped under the guise that this was open source? That's the reason people helped? It certainly had zero impact on my involvement. That doesn't even make sense. There was a discussion here with all the people involved last fall, as our system was being abused. We made the best decision for everyone involved. I was not in charge of that decision, but I agreed with it.
You are the first person in this community that I can even think of that has come on here and blasted anyone on the dev team for anything other than core Vanguard issues. There is not one person here that feels they are doing something for the wrong reason. This is not called OpenVanguard. Just because the source was open at one time has nothing to do with whether the source should be open now. We had our reasons, I described them, and any intelligent person that has been here for any reasonable amount of time agrees with it.
If anyone has produced something of value, and wants the source that they affected, then we can make arrangements for that. It is as simple as a conversation with an admin or dev. I don't remember you contributing anything. If that's not the case, please let me know what value you've been so I can appreciate it, and perhaps be better informed. The code is completely marked with who wrote what, and there's around 7 people that have ever been involved in coding, overall. Right now there are 3. We didn't start scripting until recently, and all those people started after we went closed source. I can name each and every one of them. So what exactly are you talking about?
If you are looking to start OpenVanguard, go right ahead. Why on earth do you think we owe you anything? I was basically kidding when I gave the two scenarios; I didn't think any adult would seriously think they were just entitled to other people's work for no particular reason. If your morality system is that corrupt, then it is time to look inside. We all have strong morals, and one of them is that we get what we work for. We are not entitled to anything. It's like coming over to my house and asking me why I think I'm entitled to my truck. And when I say because I worked hard for the money to buy it, and then have taken care of it for years, you would suggest that since you work for GM you are also entitled to it, and I need to hand over the keys. That's not logical, and that's not a moral issue. If you want to tune it up, you can borrow it, and do some work, but in the end it is still my truck and I have control over who accesses it. If you were in the dealership and recommended it to me, and helped me pick out the color, it is still my truck to control, because I am the one who has everything invested in it, even though you contributed to it. If and when it is appropriate for everyone to share it, then that is great, rather than something that is owed. When it is time to make it open, that will be our choice.
If the original man in charge of this project were involved, you would have been banned instantly for acting this way on our community forum. Respect for each other is something that we emphasize and practice, from the devs to the content team to those who come on and help find resources to how the original game behaved and contribute on the forums. I gave you respect by responding to your question with the simple truth. You showed none in return and in no terms are you capable of being a part of what we are doing.
And this is only my opinion. I am not in charge of this project. You asked a question, I knew the answer, and I provided it.
It's really shitty to accept free help and community involvement on a project, then to turn around and say you own the entirety of what has been produced and no one has any right to even access it unless you explicitly authorize it. Those aren't the terms under which a lot of people contributed to this project, and your sense of entitlement over those contributions isn't any better than the sense of entitlement from other people you expressed frustration over.
Saying stuff like this:
[quote]Open source means you can simply and easily take two years worth of ongoing work and do whatever you want with that. That's not really very appealing![/quote]
really drives home the toxic attitude you have about this project and its community. Exploring and tinkering with a code base is the foundation of much of the open source development community. Many of the tools and technology you are using this very second, and have used on this project, have largely been successfully due to what you call unappealing.
If you wanted complete ownership and control over the project, it shouldn't have been made open source to begin with, and it shouldn't have accepted free help under the guise of being what people expect from open source projects.
I have no intention of persuading you or the other members that endorsed the close source decision. It's obvious your morality on the issue differs drastically from my own. However, know you have created a tremendous amount of ill will in at least potential contributor, and I suspect you will continue to push away people wanting to help with the attitude you have towards this community.[/quote]
This is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. You have zero idea what you are talking about here. I gave you a very reasonable explanation about how we came to that agreement. I am not in charge of this project, and never have been. I have personally invested hundreds of hours working on this for zero personal gain, other than the satisfaction of trying to bring this game back to life. As I mentioned, I have been here since you could do nothing but walk around the world. I know everyone who was involved at that time, and know who was involved before that. I AM the free help that built this game. Do you not know that? Did you build items, equipment, inventory, banking, mail, broker, npc movement, combat, quests, vendors, loot, diplomacy, etc? I did. Did you build spells, work on the Lua system, among other things? Faux did. Did you work on the underlying structure, decode the packets, and fill in as many parts as possible? Xinux and Lokked did. Did you build the database, the website, and spend half of each of your days trying to make this work? John Adams did. Did you set up the NPC AI and dialog and numerous other systems? Volt did. I don't recall seeing you at any point, and you have 2 forum posts starting today. What big help were you that you feel so ripped off? We shouldn't feel any entitlement to our code for what reason? We are completely entitled to it; we made it!
Who helped under the guise that this was open source? That's the reason people helped? It certainly had zero impact on my involvement. That doesn't even make sense. There was a discussion here with all the people involved last fall, as our system was being abused. We made the best decision for everyone involved. I was not in charge of that decision, but I agreed with it.
You are the first person in this community that I can even think of that has come on here and blasted anyone on the dev team for anything other than core Vanguard issues. There is not one person here that feels they are doing something for the wrong reason. This is not called OpenVanguard. Just because the source was open at one time has nothing to do with whether the source should be open now. We had our reasons, I described them, and any intelligent person that has been here for any reasonable amount of time agrees with it.
If anyone has produced something of value, and wants the source that they affected, then we can make arrangements for that. It is as simple as a conversation with an admin or dev. I don't remember you contributing anything. If that's not the case, please let me know what value you've been so I can appreciate it, and perhaps be better informed. The code is completely marked with who wrote what, and there's around 7 people that have ever been involved in coding, overall. Right now there are 3. We didn't start scripting until recently, and all those people started after we went closed source. I can name each and every one of them. So what exactly are you talking about?
If you are looking to start OpenVanguard, go right ahead. Why on earth do you think we owe you anything? I was basically kidding when I gave the two scenarios; I didn't think any adult would seriously think they were just entitled to other people's work for no particular reason. If your morality system is that corrupt, then it is time to look inside. We all have strong morals, and one of them is that we get what we work for. We are not entitled to anything. It's like coming over to my house and asking me why I think I'm entitled to my truck. And when I say because I worked hard for the money to buy it, and then have taken care of it for years, you would suggest that since you work for GM you are also entitled to it, and I need to hand over the keys. That's not logical, and that's not a moral issue. If you want to tune it up, you can borrow it, and do some work, but in the end it is still my truck and I have control over who accesses it. If you were in the dealership and recommended it to me, and helped me pick out the color, it is still my truck to control, because I am the one who has everything invested in it, even though you contributed to it. If and when it is appropriate for everyone to share it, then that is great, rather than something that is owed. When it is time to make it open, that will be our choice.
If the original man in charge of this project were involved, you would have been banned instantly for acting this way on our community forum. Respect for each other is something that we emphasize and practice, from the devs to the content team to those who come on and help find resources to how the original game behaved and contribute on the forums. I gave you respect by responding to your question with the simple truth. You showed none in return and in no terms are you capable of being a part of what we are doing.
And this is only my opinion. I am not in charge of this project. You asked a question, I knew the answer, and I provided it.
Re: Closed Source Question
Well said zippy.
Re: Closed Source Question
And to make it clear, we are not chasing anyone away. We welcome each and every person who wants to help, and provide tools and guidance. And access to the code, as I mentioned, when asked. It's just not sitting out in the open. That's not a hard pill to swallow for anyone with reasonable intentions. We would all love to have as many talented people helping as possible.
Re: Closed Source Question
Where is my clinking beer emote? Great response Zippy. As you mentioned, John's response would have been swift and final.
Brynn, to reiterate, this project went closed source, not for some selfish motive or desire to profit from it commercially (even if that weren't illegal). People were downloading the source, running into issues with it in the best cases, and commenting about better ways to do things while offering no help and committing no data in the worst cases. It was really the second scenario that drove us to close the source (and yes, I voted in agreement with that decision).
I am willing to share my work with anyone, until they show no reciprocity despite having an ability to do so. I work a demanding full time job in the health care industry like Zippy, spend my evenings with my wife and two daughters, and only after that do I have any time to put in on this project. Every moment I spend is a conscious decision to forego sleep to get some other feature implemented. That may not sound like much, but I consider my time valuable and it irritates me when people use my work and contribute none of their own. That is not a notional statement. That WAS happening. So as a group, we made the decision to close the source, so if people wanted to contribute, they could work with us, not in parallel, slowing everyone down. Eventually when we have a functional server with all the major systems implemented and tested, it will go open source again. Until that time, anyone who feels entitled to one line of the code I have written just because they want it, can F off.
As an aside, Xinux, can you branch this dialog into another thread? It has no business mucking up the Progress thread. The off-topic forum would be a better place I think.
Edit: Nice, the posts got moved while I was typing my response
Brynn, to reiterate, this project went closed source, not for some selfish motive or desire to profit from it commercially (even if that weren't illegal). People were downloading the source, running into issues with it in the best cases, and commenting about better ways to do things while offering no help and committing no data in the worst cases. It was really the second scenario that drove us to close the source (and yes, I voted in agreement with that decision).
I am willing to share my work with anyone, until they show no reciprocity despite having an ability to do so. I work a demanding full time job in the health care industry like Zippy, spend my evenings with my wife and two daughters, and only after that do I have any time to put in on this project. Every moment I spend is a conscious decision to forego sleep to get some other feature implemented. That may not sound like much, but I consider my time valuable and it irritates me when people use my work and contribute none of their own. That is not a notional statement. That WAS happening. So as a group, we made the decision to close the source, so if people wanted to contribute, they could work with us, not in parallel, slowing everyone down. Eventually when we have a functional server with all the major systems implemented and tested, it will go open source again. Until that time, anyone who feels entitled to one line of the code I have written just because they want it, can F off.
As an aside, Xinux, can you branch this dialog into another thread? It has no business mucking up the Progress thread. The off-topic forum would be a better place I think.
Edit: Nice, the posts got moved while I was typing my response