Multiboxing
Moderator: Community Managers
Re: Multiboxing
I started boxing with my wifes account camping Forest Loops in EQ. We usually played together but sometimes I was home alone and, well... In vanguard I always boxed for harvesting if no one else was around to group with, it just didn't make a lot of sense going alone, it's not Eucher you know.
Private servers can set their own rules, if I had a like button John would get double likes on this topic.
Private servers can set their own rules, if I had a like button John would get double likes on this topic.
Re: Multiboxing
When I played VG I used Ameudues' VG scripting software. I remember it being mentioned this past year but not included in the charter you recently posted John. Will I still be able to use it when the servers go live?
Re: Multiboxing
A better way to go than boxing is bots. EQ emulator has the, the WoW Mangos emulator has them, why even EQ live now has hirelings (mercenaries I think they call them).
Multi-boxing gobbles up a valuable resource players are not paying for that is the major expense of emulator hosting...bandwith (not to mention creating more load on the login servers). Player-Bots/mercenaries on the other hand are just a few more CPU cycles and solve the issue of low, inconsistent populations that make grouping overly challenging (seriously, this was an issue on VG live, why would it be any better on the emulator which surely will have far smaller numbers than the live game?)
Besides, with player bots typically, you as a player still have to create them, equip them and level them, its not like they are a freebie generated out of the ether. (its the same as making alts, but you can play both your main and alt at the same time, using ONE client session)
Also, I imagine some for of player botting is required as part of testing to simulate larger, concurrent player loads (we did it as part of the development work on the SWG: A New Hope emulator) and is work that could be extended if player botting is kept in mind as a feature at some point.
Multi-boxing gobbles up a valuable resource players are not paying for that is the major expense of emulator hosting...bandwith (not to mention creating more load on the login servers). Player-Bots/mercenaries on the other hand are just a few more CPU cycles and solve the issue of low, inconsistent populations that make grouping overly challenging (seriously, this was an issue on VG live, why would it be any better on the emulator which surely will have far smaller numbers than the live game?)
Besides, with player bots typically, you as a player still have to create them, equip them and level them, its not like they are a freebie generated out of the ether. (its the same as making alts, but you can play both your main and alt at the same time, using ONE client session)
Also, I imagine some for of player botting is required as part of testing to simulate larger, concurrent player loads (we did it as part of the development work on the SWG: A New Hope emulator) and is work that could be extended if player botting is kept in mind as a feature at some point.
Re: Multiboxing
As John has already stated that boxing will be allowed, this is dragging on a bit, BUT, I felt I should clear something up:
[quote="Kinshi"]A better way to go than boxing is bots.[/quote]
This may be true if the server admin doesn't wish to allow boxing. However, bots do nothing for a person that enjoys the complexities and challenge of setting up and playing a successful boxing group. Some people (like me) only PvE when they box. Some people build up groups specifically for PvP (I'm expecting that this is where most people's hate toward boxers comes from...it hurts getting rolled over by a group of toons with perfectly synchronized spike damage).
While player bots are useful when only considering population issues, they aren't necessarily "fun" to play. IIRC, you can't control them and tell them what to do directly. I used them extensively in the original GuildWars series (Both hired and the "Heroes" that you leveled up during the story). I would create my skill bars for each one, give them the weapons & armor required, and you could even have a bit of control over their skill use. This is still a rather watered down experience compared to actual multi-boxing. It would be like getting a nice new bike, but being required to keep training wheels on it, even though you know how to ride without them.
For many boxers, playing a solo character is a rather bland experience. I'm one of those players. I used to play a single Priest in WoW, and would heal in raids while watching movies or playing an entirely different game on another monitor. Playing a single character presents little to no challenge to me.
Playing 3+ characters of different classes and/or roles all at the same time engages me enough in the game that I don't need to have something else going on on another monitor to keep myself entertained.
For some people, boxing is about more than finding a group or population issues. I boxed on public WoW servers where I never had issues finding groups. I boxed for the challenge and enjoyment of it. If I needed to group with another set of players and we were limited on space, I would drop one of my characters for that period of time, then pick them back up again when the group was over.
In short: Boxing is about having fun!
[quote="Kinshi"]A better way to go than boxing is bots.[/quote]
This may be true if the server admin doesn't wish to allow boxing. However, bots do nothing for a person that enjoys the complexities and challenge of setting up and playing a successful boxing group. Some people (like me) only PvE when they box. Some people build up groups specifically for PvP (I'm expecting that this is where most people's hate toward boxers comes from...it hurts getting rolled over by a group of toons with perfectly synchronized spike damage).
While player bots are useful when only considering population issues, they aren't necessarily "fun" to play. IIRC, you can't control them and tell them what to do directly. I used them extensively in the original GuildWars series (Both hired and the "Heroes" that you leveled up during the story). I would create my skill bars for each one, give them the weapons & armor required, and you could even have a bit of control over their skill use. This is still a rather watered down experience compared to actual multi-boxing. It would be like getting a nice new bike, but being required to keep training wheels on it, even though you know how to ride without them.
For many boxers, playing a solo character is a rather bland experience. I'm one of those players. I used to play a single Priest in WoW, and would heal in raids while watching movies or playing an entirely different game on another monitor. Playing a single character presents little to no challenge to me.
Playing 3+ characters of different classes and/or roles all at the same time engages me enough in the game that I don't need to have something else going on on another monitor to keep myself entertained.
For some people, boxing is about more than finding a group or population issues. I boxed on public WoW servers where I never had issues finding groups. I boxed for the challenge and enjoyment of it. If I needed to group with another set of players and we were limited on space, I would drop one of my characters for that period of time, then pick them back up again when the group was over.
In short: Boxing is about having fun!
Re: Multiboxing
[quote] bots do nothing for a person that enjoys the complexities and challenge of setting up and playing a successful boxing group[/quote]
That is not true in the case of Player Bot, and for an example I would refer you to the Player Bot repository used for Mangos-WoW emulator. This method uses actual player characters from your character slots as group members, and allows you to trade with the bots, issue instructions, etc. The dynamics are the same a group of players, because they are actual player characters.
Detail on what exactly Player Bot does...
https://github.com/playerbot/mangos/wik ... t-Features
Its far more than just using a NPC as a "pet", its the full group dynamic you want from multiboxing, without the actual boxes and the added bandwidth consumption and server load added client sessions create. (and boxing on live servers is a non-issue as you are paying for each account you use, this no big deal for Blizzard or any other publisher, but it can be a big deal for emulator servers as they have to pay for bandwidth and hosting themselves, and most players do NOT donate to help with expanses, making multi-boxing a very expensive thing to support, and at at a higher scale can cause issues with being able to get more actual players online)
I think most admins are ok with the concept of multi-boxing (the need/want of that group of characters, its just the real effects of supporting it are what make them choose to limit it (same reason why they often limit to once account per IP address unless you state you are playing with other people at the same location)
Its why I advocate for a Player Bot solution because while it does equal extra development work, it does provide a happy medium for both players and server admins.
That is not true in the case of Player Bot, and for an example I would refer you to the Player Bot repository used for Mangos-WoW emulator. This method uses actual player characters from your character slots as group members, and allows you to trade with the bots, issue instructions, etc. The dynamics are the same a group of players, because they are actual player characters.
Detail on what exactly Player Bot does...
https://github.com/playerbot/mangos/wik ... t-Features
Its far more than just using a NPC as a "pet", its the full group dynamic you want from multiboxing, without the actual boxes and the added bandwidth consumption and server load added client sessions create. (and boxing on live servers is a non-issue as you are paying for each account you use, this no big deal for Blizzard or any other publisher, but it can be a big deal for emulator servers as they have to pay for bandwidth and hosting themselves, and most players do NOT donate to help with expanses, making multi-boxing a very expensive thing to support, and at at a higher scale can cause issues with being able to get more actual players online)
I think most admins are ok with the concept of multi-boxing (the need/want of that group of characters, its just the real effects of supporting it are what make them choose to limit it (same reason why they often limit to once account per IP address unless you state you are playing with other people at the same location)
Its why I advocate for a Player Bot solution because while it does equal extra development work, it does provide a happy medium for both players and server admins.
Re: Multiboxing
Playerbot does look like a decent compromise, with nearly the full multiboxing experience (character movement is the key missing element here).
I can see how the bandwidth would have a small to moderate amount of savings compared to running multiple sessions, but if the server is running the bots compared to processing session commands, I don't see how there could be much of a CPU/Memory load savings. I would actually expect at least the combined memory usage to be higher, but both would depend heavily on the efficiency of the code of the server and the bot software.
This would be an additional project to port that over to VGO, or write our own from scratch. This may be something to take on in the future, but after the emulator is in a playable, if not complete, state.
I would still prefer a traditional boxing setup over Playerbot, where I have full absolute control over all characters at all times, but if that was the only option, I could work with it.
The auction house bot is something I have used before in emulators that I ran, and is a great utility. This should probably be considered for inclusion in the core emulator build.
I can see how the bandwidth would have a small to moderate amount of savings compared to running multiple sessions, but if the server is running the bots compared to processing session commands, I don't see how there could be much of a CPU/Memory load savings. I would actually expect at least the combined memory usage to be higher, but both would depend heavily on the efficiency of the code of the server and the bot software.
This would be an additional project to port that over to VGO, or write our own from scratch. This may be something to take on in the future, but after the emulator is in a playable, if not complete, state.
I would still prefer a traditional boxing setup over Playerbot, where I have full absolute control over all characters at all times, but if that was the only option, I could work with it.
The auction house bot is something I have used before in emulators that I ran, and is a great utility. This should probably be considered for inclusion in the core emulator build.
Re: Multiboxing
Its the sort of thing that is much easier to code for now, rather than later (that is account for player bots in the design NOW..because later it may well become too big of a job, due to much code needing to be refactored). My ideal approach would be to account for player bots as part of the AI design (since it is a direct correlation), like adding the needed hooks, so the actual functionality could be added layer w/o a major refactor.
Odds are high that "later" never comes especially if it winds up being a bigger, messier project later.
The saving on server load comes from not having all these extra connections to the login server (its most noticeable following a server reset and all those clients come slamming back to the login server at the same time). and there is CPU savings (at least in terms of Player Bot) by not having as much the cumulative networking overhead. Not a big deal with 100 or less players but really big deal when get to like 1000 or more concurrent players.
See the player bit is NOT being controlled by the AI, thus no real CPU overhead for them, you are the one controlling their action via /slash commands (similar to how one might control a pet) and they wind up using the same code a player would (like for /autofollow, etc). Also, there is other use for player bots that link back to development (they certainly make testing group and raid functions much easier) and can play a role in load testing as well. (particularly in terms of exercising AI functions)
Now the way Player Bot is maintained is separate from the Mangos core..it has its own developers/maintainers, but the groups do cooperate closely, and Player Bot for Mangos has become somewhat of a must-have function for many server admins.
anyway..I think it is a valuable (if not optional right now) functionality that could prove to be a must-have later down the road.
From a multi-box stand point, it only improves that too, as then you could multi-box an entire raid (though good luck keeping track of all those toons hehe)...wind up getting a first-person "Age of Empires" feel trying to control that many 'units'
Odds are high that "later" never comes especially if it winds up being a bigger, messier project later.
The saving on server load comes from not having all these extra connections to the login server (its most noticeable following a server reset and all those clients come slamming back to the login server at the same time). and there is CPU savings (at least in terms of Player Bot) by not having as much the cumulative networking overhead. Not a big deal with 100 or less players but really big deal when get to like 1000 or more concurrent players.
See the player bit is NOT being controlled by the AI, thus no real CPU overhead for them, you are the one controlling their action via /slash commands (similar to how one might control a pet) and they wind up using the same code a player would (like for /autofollow, etc). Also, there is other use for player bots that link back to development (they certainly make testing group and raid functions much easier) and can play a role in load testing as well. (particularly in terms of exercising AI functions)
Now the way Player Bot is maintained is separate from the Mangos core..it has its own developers/maintainers, but the groups do cooperate closely, and Player Bot for Mangos has become somewhat of a must-have function for many server admins.
anyway..I think it is a valuable (if not optional right now) functionality that could prove to be a must-have later down the road.
From a multi-box stand point, it only improves that too, as then you could multi-box an entire raid (though good luck keeping track of all those toons hehe)...wind up getting a first-person "Age of Empires" feel trying to control that many 'units'
Re: Multiboxing
Some good points there, especially now that I have looked further into how PlayerBot is built. It's more of a direct server implementation, rather than a separate program running along side the server's main process.
As for multi-boxing an entire raid (solo raid)...I have seen videos of some people doing that, but is way beyond my abilities I max out at one group (5-6 players depending on the game), and even then, its quite hard to keep track of everything, unless you just zurg with a single class.
24 Blood Mages anyone? Setup a circular defensive target system for all around passive heals from damage & massive spike heal single target capability...go High Elf on a portion and use Arcane Balance to effectively have a "single" massive mana pool, plus Thestran Human on the rest to maintain all three Inspirations on all the raid groups...may be fun to try
As for multi-boxing an entire raid (solo raid)...I have seen videos of some people doing that, but is way beyond my abilities I max out at one group (5-6 players depending on the game), and even then, its quite hard to keep track of everything, unless you just zurg with a single class.
24 Blood Mages anyone? Setup a circular defensive target system for all around passive heals from damage & massive spike heal single target capability...go High Elf on a portion and use Arcane Balance to effectively have a "single" massive mana pool, plus Thestran Human on the rest to maintain all three Inspirations on all the raid groups...may be fun to try
Re: Multiboxing
[quote="shargash"]Boxing can actually promote community on a low-population server, which is what I think we can expect in the emulator. I spent a lot of time in the dead years of Vanguard boxing in groups in places like Dargun's, Trickster's, and Nusibe. In any case, boxing is no more antisocial than soloing. The barrier to community is attitude, not in how many accounts you're playing.[/quote]
I'm not really a fan of boxing. Kind of disappointed to hear John's stance on it. I think it kills the community. Why group when I can just play 6 characters?
I'd be interested in hearing how boxing promotes community though.
I'm not really a fan of boxing. Kind of disappointed to hear John's stance on it. I think it kills the community. Why group when I can just play 6 characters?
I'd be interested in hearing how boxing promotes community though.
Re: Multiboxing
In other games,I have often been playing a single toon then joined a group as, say DPS, and the group would also be looking for a healer. I normally let the group look for a dedicated healer for a time, then offer to also play one of my healer accounts. Most of the time this is quite welcome, especially in lower population games\ servers.
That is the kind of situation is where multiboxing can help build the community. We could sit there all night looking for that last slot to be able to run something, or I can play two characters at once and the whole group gets to have fun.
For more on multiboxing, check out dual-boxing.com
That is an entire community dedicated to multiboxing in several different games. Some even run mulitiboxing only guilds.
As stated by shargash: The barrier to community is attitude, not in how many accounts you're playing.
That is the kind of situation is where multiboxing can help build the community. We could sit there all night looking for that last slot to be able to run something, or I can play two characters at once and the whole group gets to have fun.
For more on multiboxing, check out dual-boxing.com
That is an entire community dedicated to multiboxing in several different games. Some even run mulitiboxing only guilds.
As stated by shargash: The barrier to community is attitude, not in how many accounts you're playing.