Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
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Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
Isle of dawn was a great experience and something the live game desperately needed. The EMU will need it even more given that the population will likely be even lower than live. Please do not add any custom content. I want to play VG as it was. IoD was never intended as a "home" like the 3 continents were. It was simply a place for refugees to find each other and group up. That's why there was no way to go back to IoD. There's already great 20-40 content that's very accessible. Why spread the low population even more? Group dynamics are huge, HUGE in this game. Spreading players on too much content makes finding people to group with extremely difficult and you miss out on the best parts of the game - socializing and using group combat dynamics.
1-10: IoD
10-20: Hunter's league
20-30: Unicorn, Hound, TK, CIS
30-40: VT Armor, Harrus Hakrel, Zosyr Hakrel, that other Thestran place
40-50: Rahz Inkur, ToT, NN
That was always my basic leveling plan
Kojan was almost exclusively a crafting/diplo continent. Not much leveling content there (except 1-10). Overland bosses were added to Kojan later along with Magi Hold for end-game stuff.
Conversely, since most of these EMU players have already played the game and know the zones, IoD may not be necessary as it was designed for newcomers to the VG world.
I wouldn't mind either way - IoD or no IoD. However, if implemented in the beginning, I would likely choose it as my starting area because it was very fun and there were always people to see, group with, and all 3 spheres soared to lvl 10 quickly.
1-10: IoD
10-20: Hunter's league
20-30: Unicorn, Hound, TK, CIS
30-40: VT Armor, Harrus Hakrel, Zosyr Hakrel, that other Thestran place
40-50: Rahz Inkur, ToT, NN
That was always my basic leveling plan
Kojan was almost exclusively a crafting/diplo continent. Not much leveling content there (except 1-10). Overland bosses were added to Kojan later along with Magi Hold for end-game stuff.
Conversely, since most of these EMU players have already played the game and know the zones, IoD may not be necessary as it was designed for newcomers to the VG world.
I wouldn't mind either way - IoD or no IoD. However, if implemented in the beginning, I would likely choose it as my starting area because it was very fun and there were always people to see, group with, and all 3 spheres soared to lvl 10 quickly.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
Wasn't Magi Hold a revamp? That was originally Kojan's 20s dungeon.
The walled section in Blighted Lands seemed undeveloped, hundreds of critters crawling around without any quest material. Some of them could be tuned 25ish.
The purpose of IoD was to bring in new players and give them a quick crash course in the game--is that actually needed? I could easily see that place and any other usable islands turned into Kojani 30s stuff. I can't see any reason that Vanguard really screams for a generic starter area.
Socially I don't believe it matters. Plenty of low level group areas, Arks of Harmony, Gardens of Xia'liu, Karrus Fahrel, Gulgrethor Fortress and so on. I kind of see it as 1-10 mostly solo, leveling--more ways to do it than a single character ever would, high levels--everyone's paths come together. I'm not sure why having a variety of places is ever adverse?
The walled section in Blighted Lands seemed undeveloped, hundreds of critters crawling around without any quest material. Some of them could be tuned 25ish.
The purpose of IoD was to bring in new players and give them a quick crash course in the game--is that actually needed? I could easily see that place and any other usable islands turned into Kojani 30s stuff. I can't see any reason that Vanguard really screams for a generic starter area.
Socially I don't believe it matters. Plenty of low level group areas, Arks of Harmony, Gardens of Xia'liu, Karrus Fahrel, Gulgrethor Fortress and so on. I kind of see it as 1-10 mostly solo, leveling--more ways to do it than a single character ever would, high levels--everyone's paths come together. I'm not sure why having a variety of places is ever adverse?
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
The issue of spreading out the users isn't really going to be an issue - one of our plans is to implement "white" rifts so that people can start their characters in their proper, original starting area but will be able to use those rifts to group up for each other if they need help.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
Lamprey, I'm going to flat out say I pretty much disagree with everything you've said.
Isle of Dawn was a stop-gap to try and mitigate the appearance of a top-heavy community. It was a way to bring everyone new to the game to the same place and make it seem like the game was more populous than it was. It didn't work. People would then filter out to three different locations and explore from there.
It wasn't a place for refugees to group up, because you couldn't go join people on it. And even when people were there they rarely actually made groups and did content together because it wasn't necessary and didn't encourage it. There were no mobs tough enough to make it necessary and all but a couple of classes could easily solo every aspect of the zone.
The beauty of Vanguard, and what kept me there as long as it did, was the sheer breadth of content. You had multiple options at every level to go and explore. Kojan itself had three different sets of leveling content to get you up to the early twenties. Every level range except for the 20s had multiple quest chains you could explore and multiple dungeons you could go through that were fully itemized.
The fact that you have a 'basic leveling plan' makes me wonder if we played the same game. It took me four years to explore everything in game, to see all of the zones and level through them appropriately (making alts to see the content level appropriate). Doing that leveling plan you miss out on so much that the game has to offer. And I think that's something that should be emphasized in Vanguard.
The one thing that IoD did very well was the crafting and diplo spheres because those low level bits weren't as well fleshed out and didn't give much direction. But what it gave in direction it took away in lore and depth. The Kojan diplo leveling for example was great! As was the Dark Elf starting diplo. You learned so much about your race.
And that's ultimately my major gripe with Isle of Dawn. You feel no attachment. There's nothing to make you feel like it's really a part of the world.
Isle of Dawn was a stop-gap to try and mitigate the appearance of a top-heavy community. It was a way to bring everyone new to the game to the same place and make it seem like the game was more populous than it was. It didn't work. People would then filter out to three different locations and explore from there.
It wasn't a place for refugees to group up, because you couldn't go join people on it. And even when people were there they rarely actually made groups and did content together because it wasn't necessary and didn't encourage it. There were no mobs tough enough to make it necessary and all but a couple of classes could easily solo every aspect of the zone.
The beauty of Vanguard, and what kept me there as long as it did, was the sheer breadth of content. You had multiple options at every level to go and explore. Kojan itself had three different sets of leveling content to get you up to the early twenties. Every level range except for the 20s had multiple quest chains you could explore and multiple dungeons you could go through that were fully itemized.
The fact that you have a 'basic leveling plan' makes me wonder if we played the same game. It took me four years to explore everything in game, to see all of the zones and level through them appropriately (making alts to see the content level appropriate). Doing that leveling plan you miss out on so much that the game has to offer. And I think that's something that should be emphasized in Vanguard.
The one thing that IoD did very well was the crafting and diplo spheres because those low level bits weren't as well fleshed out and didn't give much direction. But what it gave in direction it took away in lore and depth. The Kojan diplo leveling for example was great! As was the Dark Elf starting diplo. You learned so much about your race.
And that's ultimately my major gripe with Isle of Dawn. You feel no attachment. There's nothing to make you feel like it's really a part of the world.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
Yes, I would say that originally the 20s were the "kind of" dry times.
SOE stood that around by making more 20s areas out of the 10s zones, so you were left with I think three 10s areas to match the three starting areas. That whole compression was pointless and unnecessary. To me, it's more sensible to drop some of that 20s stuff back down. Although I personally came to the game in IoD, that's just because it was the free trial, and if it would have been ten free days of Dahknarg, that would have worked just as well.
For the many dungeons that start around 7-8, I find no problem with going to one across the world, I like that better than having excess players jammed in my face doing the same starter quests. So I'm becoming a fan of the idea of making IoD into Kojan 2.
SOE stood that around by making more 20s areas out of the 10s zones, so you were left with I think three 10s areas to match the three starting areas. That whole compression was pointless and unnecessary. To me, it's more sensible to drop some of that 20s stuff back down. Although I personally came to the game in IoD, that's just because it was the free trial, and if it would have been ten free days of Dahknarg, that would have worked just as well.
For the many dungeons that start around 7-8, I find no problem with going to one across the world, I like that better than having excess players jammed in my face doing the same starter quests. So I'm becoming a fan of the idea of making IoD into Kojan 2.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
Making it "Kojan 2" would also have the extra benefit of adding in some level 25-35 crafting and diplo quests which are sorely needed
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
[quote="Lamprey"]Isle of dawn was a great experience and something the live game desperately needed. The EMU will need it even more given that the population will likely be even lower than live. Please do not add any custom content. I want to play VG as it was. IoD was never intended as a "home" like the 3 continents were. It was simply a place for refugees to find each other and group up. That's why there was no way to go back to IoD. There's already great 20-40 content that's very accessible. Why spread the low population even more? Group dynamics are huge, HUGE in this game. Spreading players on too much content makes finding people to group with extremely difficult and you miss out on the best parts of the game - socializing and using group combat dynamics.
1-10: IoD
10-20: Hunter's league
20-30: Unicorn, Hound, TK, CIS
30-40: VT Armor, Harrus Hakrel, Zosyr Hakrel, that other Thestran place
40-50: Rahz Inkur, ToT, NN
That was always my basic leveling plan
Kojan was almost exclusively a crafting/diplo continent. Not much leveling content there (except 1-10). Overland bosses were added to Kojan later along with Magi Hold for end-game stuff.
Conversely, since most of these EMU players have already played the game and know the zones, IoD may not be necessary as it was designed for newcomers to the VG world.
I wouldn't mind either way - IoD or no IoD. However, if implemented in the beginning, I would likely choose it as my starting area because it was very fun and there were always people to see, group with, and all 3 spheres soared to lvl 10 quickly.[/quote]
Have to absolutely disagree.
IoD was not even remotely what VG needed. What it needed was a consistent dev team and a commitment to the original intent of the game. IoD was pretty much the polar oposite of what VG was supposed to be about.
It held your hand every step of the way and threw overpowered gear at you for the first ten levels. I'm sure a lot of new players loved it. Then they left the isle and the real game smacked them in the face. Then they quit.
I know this happened. It happened with 3 rl friends and my brother when I tried to get them to play VG with me. They loved the isle, and then very quickly lost interest after they had to start really playing VG. It really turned out to be more of a detriment from my pov.
I have seen a few people say that the home towns may seperate people too much. But even without the white rifts that Jakkal was talking about, it really isn't an actual issue as far as I can tell. The longest it ever took me to get from a starter area to a rift was about 20 minutes. If your playing an MMO and 20 minutes is make or break, you probably shouldn't be playing to begin with. You don't have the time.
As far as not adding custom content. I really hope they do. At least to an extent. Without some level of custom content the game will never really feel complete. It was a mishmash of like 6 different dev teams, who all came in with differing goals and a lack of resources to accomplish hardly any of them.
If all we can have is VG in the state it was at sunset, then so be it. I'll gladly play that game. But, if we can fix a lot of the glaring mistakes and half finished or broken content, and bring VG back to what we all k ow it should have been, then we really need to do it. This team can give VG the love and attention it needed all along.
1-10: IoD
10-20: Hunter's league
20-30: Unicorn, Hound, TK, CIS
30-40: VT Armor, Harrus Hakrel, Zosyr Hakrel, that other Thestran place
40-50: Rahz Inkur, ToT, NN
That was always my basic leveling plan
Kojan was almost exclusively a crafting/diplo continent. Not much leveling content there (except 1-10). Overland bosses were added to Kojan later along with Magi Hold for end-game stuff.
Conversely, since most of these EMU players have already played the game and know the zones, IoD may not be necessary as it was designed for newcomers to the VG world.
I wouldn't mind either way - IoD or no IoD. However, if implemented in the beginning, I would likely choose it as my starting area because it was very fun and there were always people to see, group with, and all 3 spheres soared to lvl 10 quickly.[/quote]
Have to absolutely disagree.
IoD was not even remotely what VG needed. What it needed was a consistent dev team and a commitment to the original intent of the game. IoD was pretty much the polar oposite of what VG was supposed to be about.
It held your hand every step of the way and threw overpowered gear at you for the first ten levels. I'm sure a lot of new players loved it. Then they left the isle and the real game smacked them in the face. Then they quit.
I know this happened. It happened with 3 rl friends and my brother when I tried to get them to play VG with me. They loved the isle, and then very quickly lost interest after they had to start really playing VG. It really turned out to be more of a detriment from my pov.
I have seen a few people say that the home towns may seperate people too much. But even without the white rifts that Jakkal was talking about, it really isn't an actual issue as far as I can tell. The longest it ever took me to get from a starter area to a rift was about 20 minutes. If your playing an MMO and 20 minutes is make or break, you probably shouldn't be playing to begin with. You don't have the time.
As far as not adding custom content. I really hope they do. At least to an extent. Without some level of custom content the game will never really feel complete. It was a mishmash of like 6 different dev teams, who all came in with differing goals and a lack of resources to accomplish hardly any of them.
If all we can have is VG in the state it was at sunset, then so be it. I'll gladly play that game. But, if we can fix a lot of the glaring mistakes and half finished or broken content, and bring VG back to what we all k ow it should have been, then we really need to do it. This team can give VG the love and attention it needed all along.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
"Isle of Dawn was a stop-gap to try and mitigate the appearance of a top-heavy community. It was a way to bring everyone new to the game to the same place and make it seem like the game was more populous than it was. It didn't work. People would then filter out to three different locations and explore from there" - Koralith
This is essentially exactly what I meant about IoD. The low-level game was dead, but IoD made it feel alive. That is a good thing. If you're complaint is that players felt alone after IoD, then you're admitting that ideas like IoD did a better job of luring players to the game than spread-out areas did. This is why I don't think adding more content is a good idea. It will spread the pop. even more than originally.
"It wasn't a place for refugees to group up, because you couldn't go join people on it. And even when people were there they rarely actually made groups and did content together because it wasn't necessary and didn't encourage it. There were no mobs tough enough to make it necessary and all but a couple of classes could easily solo every aspect of the zone." - Koralith
Almost everybody on IoD grouped for the temple part of IoD and the "camp" area before it. That was a good thing, too. They didn't allow people to go back to the isle because that would ruin the grouping possibilities. People higher than lvl 10 would own it too easily and basically just PL newbies through it. when you're being PL'd you don't feel any reason to join real, lvl-appropriate groups.
"The beauty of Vanguard, and what kept me there as long as it did, was the sheer breadth of content. You had multiple options at every level to go and explore." - Koralith
Absolutely true. The breadth was beautiful, but only a very small percentage of players actually wanted to explore everything (because usually you ended up doing it alone). Most players had a difficult time feeling engaged with such a spread-out population. They felt lonely in an MMO, so they quit. Breadth of content is great, but it has to be balanced with facilitating socialization and grouping in an MMO. You cant go too far in either direction.
"The fact that you have a 'basic leveling plan' makes me wonder if we played the same game. It took me four years to explore everything in game, to see all of the zones and level through them appropriately (making alts to see the content level appropriate). Doing that leveling plan you miss out on so much that the game has to offer." - Koralith
Yes - I had a basic leveling plan. I did this because I had a great time exploring different classes and roles, not necessarily different zones. It's fun to explore the same area in a different way by playing a different class/role. I did explore every zone in the game, of course, but I also did the same basic leveling zones/quest lines on every character for the essential gear, items and fast xp. There are some zones I didn't include in my plan because I forgot about them. Zones like Cragwind, DT, Greystone, Beranid Hills..and probably more that I can't think of right now. Sometimes I really wanted to do certain group areas that looked really fun, but I could never find a single person to help. Another reason why I stuck to some of these zones was because other people did, too. And I love grouping with people to use group combat mechanics.
Most people don't care about exploring every square foot, or lore. VG had about as many of those people as any game could ask for. Those type are a very small population. You simply cant fill a world as big as VG with those type of people. Not enough of them exist. Most players, especially new players, want to feel like they're in a world crawling with human activity - something VG lacked, and yes, IoD attempted to fix. After IoD, new players felt alone in a HUGE world.
This is essentially exactly what I meant about IoD. The low-level game was dead, but IoD made it feel alive. That is a good thing. If you're complaint is that players felt alone after IoD, then you're admitting that ideas like IoD did a better job of luring players to the game than spread-out areas did. This is why I don't think adding more content is a good idea. It will spread the pop. even more than originally.
"It wasn't a place for refugees to group up, because you couldn't go join people on it. And even when people were there they rarely actually made groups and did content together because it wasn't necessary and didn't encourage it. There were no mobs tough enough to make it necessary and all but a couple of classes could easily solo every aspect of the zone." - Koralith
Almost everybody on IoD grouped for the temple part of IoD and the "camp" area before it. That was a good thing, too. They didn't allow people to go back to the isle because that would ruin the grouping possibilities. People higher than lvl 10 would own it too easily and basically just PL newbies through it. when you're being PL'd you don't feel any reason to join real, lvl-appropriate groups.
"The beauty of Vanguard, and what kept me there as long as it did, was the sheer breadth of content. You had multiple options at every level to go and explore." - Koralith
Absolutely true. The breadth was beautiful, but only a very small percentage of players actually wanted to explore everything (because usually you ended up doing it alone). Most players had a difficult time feeling engaged with such a spread-out population. They felt lonely in an MMO, so they quit. Breadth of content is great, but it has to be balanced with facilitating socialization and grouping in an MMO. You cant go too far in either direction.
"The fact that you have a 'basic leveling plan' makes me wonder if we played the same game. It took me four years to explore everything in game, to see all of the zones and level through them appropriately (making alts to see the content level appropriate). Doing that leveling plan you miss out on so much that the game has to offer." - Koralith
Yes - I had a basic leveling plan. I did this because I had a great time exploring different classes and roles, not necessarily different zones. It's fun to explore the same area in a different way by playing a different class/role. I did explore every zone in the game, of course, but I also did the same basic leveling zones/quest lines on every character for the essential gear, items and fast xp. There are some zones I didn't include in my plan because I forgot about them. Zones like Cragwind, DT, Greystone, Beranid Hills..and probably more that I can't think of right now. Sometimes I really wanted to do certain group areas that looked really fun, but I could never find a single person to help. Another reason why I stuck to some of these zones was because other people did, too. And I love grouping with people to use group combat mechanics.
Most people don't care about exploring every square foot, or lore. VG had about as many of those people as any game could ask for. Those type are a very small population. You simply cant fill a world as big as VG with those type of people. Not enough of them exist. Most players, especially new players, want to feel like they're in a world crawling with human activity - something VG lacked, and yes, IoD attempted to fix. After IoD, new players felt alone in a HUGE world.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
"white Rifts' might be a cool idea.
Re: Thoughts on Isle of Dawn
"IoD was not even remotely what VG needed. What it needed was a consistent dev team and a commitment to the original intent of the game. IoD was pretty much the polar oposite of what VG was supposed to be about.
It held your hand every step of the way and threw overpowered gear at you for the first ten levels. I'm sure a lot of new players loved it. Then they left the isle and the real game smacked them in the face. Then they quit." - Glenzig
Obviously a consistent dev team would have been ideal. They didn't have that. Given the state of the game at the time, and the extremely low population, IoD was a good idea. It did attract a lot of new players to the game. Sure, most of them quit after IoD (but some also loved it and stayed), but that's not a gripe with IoD, that's a gripe with spreading people out too much in a game with extremely low pop, and extremely large landmasses. IoD proved that the oringal starting areas were a turn-off given the low population. If the VG population was huge, IoD would have never been necessary and the starting areas great, but VG population will proopbably never be huge.
The transition from IoD to the lvl 10+ starting areas was a huge contrast, perhaps too big for some. It magnified the empty loneliness that existed between IoD and end-game. I believe green rifts connected these areas, but that didn't seem to help the issue in the way that some think White Rifts would. Likely because you still couldn't meet new people via continent chat from these starting areas. So, unless you already had lots of friends to /tell, you were gonna be mostly alone.
When VG released, the starting area for Dark Elves was cool. I enjoyed it, but that's when there was a decent amount of people running around in that area. During IoD era ,and a great deal of time before IoD, there was nobody in those areas. I wouldn't wish that on any newcomer. It's not realistic to expect a huge surge in population on the emulator either.
I would be more in favor of bolstering existing content rather than adding entirely new content.
White rifts, for all intensive purposes, would only help players who already have people they know and can /tell to organize groups. This wouldn't help a true newb to VG unless there was world-wide chat to ease communication between the newb starting areas and subsequently necessitate a means of travel like white rifts. However, veteran players (us geeks who enjoy it no matter what) don't likely need any help in those 1-10 areas unless they just really want company. I hope nobody is in favor of world-wide chat, but maybe we should be. That's another issue that I think should come up if white rifts are a serious option the table. Perhaps world-wide chat for lvl 1-10 only would help organize groups and ease the loneliness.
Everything kinda depends on population with VG because the world is so big. If there are enough people, then IoD is unneccesary, white rifts are unneccesary, but if the population remains extremely low (which it likely will) and you want to attract new players and keep existing ones, there'd need to be some adjustments, less focus on expanding breadth, more focus on facilitating socialization and utilization of group mechanics.
It held your hand every step of the way and threw overpowered gear at you for the first ten levels. I'm sure a lot of new players loved it. Then they left the isle and the real game smacked them in the face. Then they quit." - Glenzig
Obviously a consistent dev team would have been ideal. They didn't have that. Given the state of the game at the time, and the extremely low population, IoD was a good idea. It did attract a lot of new players to the game. Sure, most of them quit after IoD (but some also loved it and stayed), but that's not a gripe with IoD, that's a gripe with spreading people out too much in a game with extremely low pop, and extremely large landmasses. IoD proved that the oringal starting areas were a turn-off given the low population. If the VG population was huge, IoD would have never been necessary and the starting areas great, but VG population will proopbably never be huge.
The transition from IoD to the lvl 10+ starting areas was a huge contrast, perhaps too big for some. It magnified the empty loneliness that existed between IoD and end-game. I believe green rifts connected these areas, but that didn't seem to help the issue in the way that some think White Rifts would. Likely because you still couldn't meet new people via continent chat from these starting areas. So, unless you already had lots of friends to /tell, you were gonna be mostly alone.
When VG released, the starting area for Dark Elves was cool. I enjoyed it, but that's when there was a decent amount of people running around in that area. During IoD era ,and a great deal of time before IoD, there was nobody in those areas. I wouldn't wish that on any newcomer. It's not realistic to expect a huge surge in population on the emulator either.
I would be more in favor of bolstering existing content rather than adding entirely new content.
White rifts, for all intensive purposes, would only help players who already have people they know and can /tell to organize groups. This wouldn't help a true newb to VG unless there was world-wide chat to ease communication between the newb starting areas and subsequently necessitate a means of travel like white rifts. However, veteran players (us geeks who enjoy it no matter what) don't likely need any help in those 1-10 areas unless they just really want company. I hope nobody is in favor of world-wide chat, but maybe we should be. That's another issue that I think should come up if white rifts are a serious option the table. Perhaps world-wide chat for lvl 1-10 only would help organize groups and ease the loneliness.
Everything kinda depends on population with VG because the world is so big. If there are enough people, then IoD is unneccesary, white rifts are unneccesary, but if the population remains extremely low (which it likely will) and you want to attract new players and keep existing ones, there'd need to be some adjustments, less focus on expanding breadth, more focus on facilitating socialization and utilization of group mechanics.