Raid Loot Bug
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Re: Raid Loot Bug
To me you need to go at this from a raiding progression sort of thing which is driven by players. And since VGOemu is not profit driven the amount of time a player spends in game is not really an issue (subscription - carrot on the end of the stick thing).
Easiest direct solution for those who are playing in the raid and in the zone is this IMHO.
1) Let each item have a check box, say in the player pane by the item in question.
2) You can have a maximum of three items checked which signify you want upgrades in these item slots.
3) Each check box counts as a raid loot token, if you have less then three checked then it does fractional loot tokens (i.e. two items checked, each one gets 1.5 tokens, have one checked it is a value of 3 tokens).
4) Reference the loot drops table of a given boss to the useable class make-up of the raid and then reference loot token make up. The loot token is your "chance" against anyone else in the raid to get a given item drop. The system outlined here needs lots of fleshing out but it can easily be done.
5) Once you get your item your out of the loot token pool until the next raid unlock comes around.
This solves quite a bit of the randomness of loot drops. You could just implement it as a token drop for the amount of times you you have killed the boss also.
I think the big thing here is that old MMORPG systems for loot are quite crappy, they were based upon a subscription based business, not keeping players happy.
Design along the lines of keeping players happy and allowing flexibility, everything else will follow.
Easiest direct solution for those who are playing in the raid and in the zone is this IMHO.
1) Let each item have a check box, say in the player pane by the item in question.
2) You can have a maximum of three items checked which signify you want upgrades in these item slots.
3) Each check box counts as a raid loot token, if you have less then three checked then it does fractional loot tokens (i.e. two items checked, each one gets 1.5 tokens, have one checked it is a value of 3 tokens).
4) Reference the loot drops table of a given boss to the useable class make-up of the raid and then reference loot token make up. The loot token is your "chance" against anyone else in the raid to get a given item drop. The system outlined here needs lots of fleshing out but it can easily be done.
5) Once you get your item your out of the loot token pool until the next raid unlock comes around.
This solves quite a bit of the randomness of loot drops. You could just implement it as a token drop for the amount of times you you have killed the boss also.
I think the big thing here is that old MMORPG systems for loot are quite crappy, they were based upon a subscription based business, not keeping players happy.
Design along the lines of keeping players happy and allowing flexibility, everything else will follow.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
You have to be careful on just how easy you make it for the player. I've been gaming for over 30 years now and and have played numerous retail and private servers alike. If you make it so a player get's everything they want in just a few run's i can guarantee you they won't stay around for long cause they will get bored and have nothing to work toward anymore. Me personally i'm all for the slow leveling and it takes time to get everything you want.
Now everyone has there own definition of how long it should take you to get what you want and that is where the hard part comes in. I do agree killing the same mob for over a year and not seeing the item you want drop is a bit to extreme. Personally i do like the token idea drop from bosses myself even tho you may not get the item you want off of him if it doesn't drop but the token does make you get one step closer each kill to having enough tokens to buy the item you want.
Now everyone has there own definition of how long it should take you to get what you want and that is where the hard part comes in. I do agree killing the same mob for over a year and not seeing the item you want drop is a bit to extreme. Personally i do like the token idea drop from bosses myself even tho you may not get the item you want off of him if it doesn't drop but the token does make you get one step closer each kill to having enough tokens to buy the item you want.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I'd opt for a DKP system. Put this burden on the guild itself and let them choose how to distribute loot. I've run a couple DKP systems and we were able to distribute loot fairly based on participation regardless of main/alt.
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Re: Raid Loot Bug
I'm purposefully trying to stay out of the "brainstorming" to see what you all come up with, but here are some current thoughts over the last few days (since Jak compiled them, I'll use that post as reference)
[quote="Jakkal"]Master Looter Give:
EQ2's Trade System - Masterlooter can trade it to the account of someone that was there.[/quote]
I like this, though it's more work on the ML, it is not really a development problem.
[quote="Jakkal"]Heirlooming - A player can pass an item around to other characters on their account. Probably one of the better suggestions.[/quote]
I really like this, though it doesn't solve multi-account players. A twist on this, to keep item-swap madness from occurring might be additional flags on the item that let it be traded once, then it becomes NOTRADE. If that is even a problem, trading a no-trade, heirloom item more than once?
[quote="Jakkal"]Token Exchange System - Think Zaraj Arena. Go to enough raids, get tokens for kills, trade in tokens for stuff from an NPC.[/quote]
If "love" weren't a 4-letter word, I would use it here. This by far has to be my favorite idea for deciding random attendee loot winners. Seems fair, and is almost like a built-in DKP system in a way, without the overhead.
Speaking of DKP - doesn't VG's guild system have a Points value? Was that ever used in the real game for anything besides a notepad? For raiding Guilds (all members are in the same guild), maybe we could use Points as raider cash.
For individuals, we could add .givepoints {playername} {qty} that the player could acquire while a member of a Raid. Just thinking out loud.
Some other thoughts:
[quote="Jakkal"]Get rid of lockout timers[/quote]
I have 2 thoughts on this;
[quote="Jakkal"]Master Looter Give:
EQ2's Trade System - Masterlooter can trade it to the account of someone that was there.[/quote]
I like this, though it's more work on the ML, it is not really a development problem.
[quote="Jakkal"]Heirlooming - A player can pass an item around to other characters on their account. Probably one of the better suggestions.[/quote]
I really like this, though it doesn't solve multi-account players. A twist on this, to keep item-swap madness from occurring might be additional flags on the item that let it be traded once, then it becomes NOTRADE. If that is even a problem, trading a no-trade, heirloom item more than once?
[quote="Jakkal"]Token Exchange System - Think Zaraj Arena. Go to enough raids, get tokens for kills, trade in tokens for stuff from an NPC.[/quote]
If "love" weren't a 4-letter word, I would use it here. This by far has to be my favorite idea for deciding random attendee loot winners. Seems fair, and is almost like a built-in DKP system in a way, without the overhead.
Speaking of DKP - doesn't VG's guild system have a Points value? Was that ever used in the real game for anything besides a notepad? For raiding Guilds (all members are in the same guild), maybe we could use Points as raider cash.
For individuals, we could add .givepoints {playername} {qty} that the player could acquire while a member of a Raid. Just thinking out loud.
Some other thoughts:
[quote="Jakkal"]Get rid of lockout timers[/quote]
I have 2 thoughts on this;
- Timers force fairness, so no one raid can "own" an encounter indefinitely. [/*30c1bdkb]
- I'm from old-school EQ where there was no "everyone gets their fair share" madness. You gathered, got ready, and engaged, or you lost it.[/*30c1bdkb][/list30c1bdkb]
Question: Did VG always have timers? I don't remember them from back when I played (2007).
Regardless, our Timers will be Rule-based, for both setting max timers or even turning them off completely so individual Worlds can handle them however they feel. For the Official server, I'm leaning more towards the competitive edge. But that's just me.
[quote="Jakkal"]Allow More Loot Drops:
Increase Drop Percentage for super rare stuff:[/quote]
This is a definite. I do not believe in 0.000002% chances to drop stuff. Our loot accessibility will be skewed much more towards player enjoyment than trying to milk your wallets dry (we're a non-profit organization, after all).
A second option is to spread the loot around a little more, unless there is some historic, Lore reason why a Hammer should only drop off 1 dude in the entire game. Ever.
My Closing thoughts:
As you hear me (and others) predicting often, emulators are inherently low-population game servers. I do not at all expect there to be even 100 active players at any given time. Even if all 100 were end-gamers, that is around 4-6 encounters that might be run nightly. The reason we (devs) are so interested in "making things easier" is not so you get all the loots you never got in VG Live, but so you enjoy your game and keep coming back to play.
Yes, we will still have grinds, but they will be softer on your skin. Yes, we will still have harsh loot tables, but way more balanced for risk-vs-reward. "Fixing" some oversights made by Sigil and SOE are hopefully what will make our game more palatable. Keeping players happy means they will keep playing -- and players enjoying themselves on our servers will show us we've succeeded in our primary goal.
Will we do everything everyone asks? No. But we'll gather all information and do a better job than our predecessors. That I promise
Re: Raid Loot Bug
[quote="John Adams"]
I really like this, though it doesn't solve multi-account players. A twist on this, to keep item-swap madness from occurring might be additional flags on the item that let it be traded once, then it becomes NOTRADE. If that is even a problem, trading a no-trade, heirloom item more than once? [/quote]
As long as they can't sell it on the exchange. But if it's set to trade, someone could try to sell it in the OOC. I think most of us agree that we don't want to see raid loot being sold. (Though most of VG's players were all very mature and reasonable people, I doubt the grand majority would even try to sell stuff like this).
But still the possibility exists.
[quote="John Adams"]
If "love" weren't a 4-letter word, I would use it here. This by far has to be my favorite idea for deciding random attendee loot winners. Seems fair, and is almost like a built-in DKP system in a way, without the overhead.
Speaking of DKP - doesn't VG's guild system have a Points value? Was that ever used in the real game for anything besides a notepad? For raiding Guilds (all members are in the same guild), maybe we could use Points as raider cash.
For individuals, we could add .givepoints {playername} {qty} that the player could acquire while a member of a Raid. Just thinking out loud. [/quote]
VG's guild roster had a point system on it, but it still required manual updating. Most of us didn't use it for fear it would break. DKP is not something I ever want to be part of. It's way too much work, and if things seem slightly wrong the players throw huge fits.
But yes, it could be used. We mostly used it to assign -50 DKP as a joke.
[quote="John Adams"]
I really like this, though it doesn't solve multi-account players. A twist on this, to keep item-swap madness from occurring might be additional flags on the item that let it be traded once, then it becomes NOTRADE. If that is even a problem, trading a no-trade, heirloom item more than once? [/quote]
As long as they can't sell it on the exchange. But if it's set to trade, someone could try to sell it in the OOC. I think most of us agree that we don't want to see raid loot being sold. (Though most of VG's players were all very mature and reasonable people, I doubt the grand majority would even try to sell stuff like this).
But still the possibility exists.
[quote="John Adams"]
If "love" weren't a 4-letter word, I would use it here. This by far has to be my favorite idea for deciding random attendee loot winners. Seems fair, and is almost like a built-in DKP system in a way, without the overhead.
Speaking of DKP - doesn't VG's guild system have a Points value? Was that ever used in the real game for anything besides a notepad? For raiding Guilds (all members are in the same guild), maybe we could use Points as raider cash.
For individuals, we could add .givepoints {playername} {qty} that the player could acquire while a member of a Raid. Just thinking out loud. [/quote]
VG's guild roster had a point system on it, but it still required manual updating. Most of us didn't use it for fear it would break. DKP is not something I ever want to be part of. It's way too much work, and if things seem slightly wrong the players throw huge fits.
But yes, it could be used. We mostly used it to assign -50 DKP as a joke.
[quote="John Adams"]
- Timers force fairness, so no one raid can "own" an encounter indefinitely. [/*yvpzlo39]
- I'm from old-school EQ where there was no "everyone gets their fair share" madness. You gathered, got ready, and engaged, or you lost it.[/*yvpzlo39][/listyvpzlo39]
Question: Did VG always have timers? I don't remember them from back when I played (2007).
Regardless, our Timers will be Rule-based, for both setting max timers or even turning them off completely so individual Worlds can handle them however they feel. For the Official server, I'm leaning more towards the competitive edge. But that's just me.[/quote]
VG had week long lockout timers for most raid mobs. Some mobs like Talfyn and the Chickens were 20 hours or something similar. By sunset they had introduced items to let individuals remove their raid timers. I kinda liked the lockout timer removal potions cuz it would give us a chance to run with other raids (like the pug raids) and help them succeed.
Another thing is the raid respawn. Some of the overlands respawned in like 20 minutes, which was nice. Some took 8 hours to respawn. Not sure if all of them should be set to like 30minutes to an hour. I guess that's something that can be adjusted when the game goes live and you get feedback from raid teams.
[quote="John Adams"]
Increase Drop Percentage for super rare stuff:
This is a definite. I do not believe in 0.000002% chances to drop stuff. Our loot accessibility will be skewed much more towards player enjoyment than trying to milk your wallets dry (we're a non-profit organization, after all).
A second option is to spread the loot around a little more, unless there is some historic, Lore reason why a Hammer should only drop off 1 dude in the entire game. Ever.[/quote]
The second option is a good one, though it might be better for things like augment drops (like runes) or for spells (like Rogue's Vital Strikes). I'd love to see Meat II on more bosses as well. If you give mobs too big of a loot table, you run into the problem of never getting X to drop (See Chickens example from my earlier post).
[quote="John Adams"]
My Closing thoughts:
As you hear me (and others) predicting often, emulators are inherently low-population game servers. I do not at all expect there to be even 100 active players at any given time. Even if all 100 were end-gamers, that is around 4-6 encounters that might be run nightly. The reason we (devs) are so interested in "making things easier" is not so you get all the loots you never got in VG Live, but so you enjoy your game and keep coming back to play.
Yes, we will still have grinds, but they will be softer on your skin. Yes, we will still have harsh loot tables, but way more balanced for risk-vs-reward. "Fixing" some oversights made by Sigil and SOE are hopefully what will make our game more palatable. Keeping players happy means they will keep playing -- and players enjoying themselves on our servers will show us we've succeeded in our primary goal.
Will we do everything everyone asks? No. But we'll gather all information and do a better job than our predecessors. That I promise [/quote]
I'd just be interested in getting rid of some of the frustration. A lot of what made Vanguard "challenging" to some is plain frustrating to others, which is part of why the population was always so dismal.
But it's nice having a dialogue with devs that are at least willing to listen to our suggestions.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I am trying to think way ahead when I post and I really can't see entire guilds raiding at a hardcore level again for quite a while, if at all, let alone having an alt problem, so we are trying to fix a problem that occurred during a max level, alt overload bottleneck that we will not have again in this game by making loot easier to obtain and share with characters who played no part in earning it.
It just seems crazy to me, I would expect to see this on WoW forums not VG!
I am not having a go at anyone by any means, I have a ton of respect for you all and this isn't a rant I just think we are overthinking this and trying to fix a problem that most likely will not exist at all if the loot tables and drop chance is tweaked and the itemisation issue is fixed/reverted.
People who raid need to ask themselves why they raid?
What brings you back to raid each week, what drives you and keeps you going? (Apart from the teamwork, relationships, challenge etc.)
I think you will find it's loot and progression and we are talking here to make that not only easier to come by but also making a cheat, an unintended exploit part of the game because of a problem that existed 7 years after the game was launched.
We never had this roll exploit for the first 6 or so years, it was a lot more recent that it was discovered, I think one of the updates/patches broke it and the Devs didn't know how to fix it or just didn't care by that stage.
I just can't help but think we are talking about ruining one of the best parts of the game to make the game easier and more convenient, which is why I think it doesn't sit well with me.
I raid to get a progression drop, to further progress my character, I spend time and effort to do that (and used to spend money on 4 subs but that isn;t important anymore), I continue to raid to have fun and help others while I wait for my gear to drop, removing that waiting will have a big impact on retaining raiders and with an already low expected playerbase, that will hurt a lot of us and our guilds (if we are even able to put a raiding guild together with low numbers) and remember how long it took us to progress from rags to Swamp gear to APW to T3/Epic/Overland? Remember how many years we raided for to get that progression? A very long time with very skilled players, a lot of wipes and frustrations and without being made so incredibly OP this time around, that challenge is going to be there again and slow us down a lot and I love that thought!
I do not think we will have that luxury this time around of 24+ skilled players of a balanced class spread and I do not think this is an issue that we need to fix, I think fixing the actual cause of it like itemisation and loot tables/% drop rates will be more than enough.
What do you guy's think?
Am I harping on about this for no reason or do you think there is a scrap of wisdom/sense in my post?
It just seems crazy to me, I would expect to see this on WoW forums not VG!
I am not having a go at anyone by any means, I have a ton of respect for you all and this isn't a rant I just think we are overthinking this and trying to fix a problem that most likely will not exist at all if the loot tables and drop chance is tweaked and the itemisation issue is fixed/reverted.
People who raid need to ask themselves why they raid?
What brings you back to raid each week, what drives you and keeps you going? (Apart from the teamwork, relationships, challenge etc.)
I think you will find it's loot and progression and we are talking here to make that not only easier to come by but also making a cheat, an unintended exploit part of the game because of a problem that existed 7 years after the game was launched.
We never had this roll exploit for the first 6 or so years, it was a lot more recent that it was discovered, I think one of the updates/patches broke it and the Devs didn't know how to fix it or just didn't care by that stage.
I just can't help but think we are talking about ruining one of the best parts of the game to make the game easier and more convenient, which is why I think it doesn't sit well with me.
I raid to get a progression drop, to further progress my character, I spend time and effort to do that (and used to spend money on 4 subs but that isn;t important anymore), I continue to raid to have fun and help others while I wait for my gear to drop, removing that waiting will have a big impact on retaining raiders and with an already low expected playerbase, that will hurt a lot of us and our guilds (if we are even able to put a raiding guild together with low numbers) and remember how long it took us to progress from rags to Swamp gear to APW to T3/Epic/Overland? Remember how many years we raided for to get that progression? A very long time with very skilled players, a lot of wipes and frustrations and without being made so incredibly OP this time around, that challenge is going to be there again and slow us down a lot and I love that thought!
I do not think we will have that luxury this time around of 24+ skilled players of a balanced class spread and I do not think this is an issue that we need to fix, I think fixing the actual cause of it like itemisation and loot tables/% drop rates will be more than enough.
What do you guy's think?
Am I harping on about this for no reason or do you think there is a scrap of wisdom/sense in my post?
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I love ya Kilsin, but I think this is where we disagree.
I don't think it makes the game easier to get a drop you've been working hard for, regardless if you get it the first night, or six months later. While gear is important to progression, it's doubly important for player morale. There's a really fine line here between "earning you loot" and "running off all your players from frustration."
What I've written in this thread is based on my experiences as a guild leader, raid leader, and master looter for our raids. I wish I could say that most of our guys were in it for the companionship and joy, but that only goes so far when you've killed something several times and something several people need just will not drop at all.
To give an example, when my guild Safe Haven first entered APW, the Zaraax Dagger dropped, but I didn't win it because we had rolling on, and someone else rolled need and higher than me (That stupid bard!). I did not see that drop again for 6 months. We killed Zaraax every week for 6 months and it wouldn't drop at all, to the point that everything he dropped was rot loot, even for the crappy alts people were bringing. And I was not the only rogue that needed it.
I don't think it made the game more difficult or "challenging" because I couldn't get that drop. It didn't make it more "rewarding" when it finally dropped. It made me feel like I was wasting everyone's time for that drop. I know many of my other guildies felt similarly about things they wanted, that they couldn't get to drop.
I know the example is not the best because I also moved on to bigger and better things after that, but we're talking about retaining players. It's very important not to frustrate players or you'll lose them forever.
I really like the Zaraj-Token-Idea because even if it takes me 6 months, or even a year, to earn up the required tokens to get an item - at least I know I'm making progress towards it. And that saves my morale, and keeps me raiding. And I don't feel like this idea makes the game any easier, or more challenging. It takes out the guess work and makes me feel like I'm moving forward in my progression. This system will get people to raid stuff they otherwise wouldn't volunteer for, because they get rewarded just for participating.
We lost so very many players because of loot issues, and I know we're not going to be able to afford to lose players to loot issues, which is why I bring this up.
I don't think it makes the game easier to get a drop you've been working hard for, regardless if you get it the first night, or six months later. While gear is important to progression, it's doubly important for player morale. There's a really fine line here between "earning you loot" and "running off all your players from frustration."
What I've written in this thread is based on my experiences as a guild leader, raid leader, and master looter for our raids. I wish I could say that most of our guys were in it for the companionship and joy, but that only goes so far when you've killed something several times and something several people need just will not drop at all.
To give an example, when my guild Safe Haven first entered APW, the Zaraax Dagger dropped, but I didn't win it because we had rolling on, and someone else rolled need and higher than me (That stupid bard!). I did not see that drop again for 6 months. We killed Zaraax every week for 6 months and it wouldn't drop at all, to the point that everything he dropped was rot loot, even for the crappy alts people were bringing. And I was not the only rogue that needed it.
I don't think it made the game more difficult or "challenging" because I couldn't get that drop. It didn't make it more "rewarding" when it finally dropped. It made me feel like I was wasting everyone's time for that drop. I know many of my other guildies felt similarly about things they wanted, that they couldn't get to drop.
I know the example is not the best because I also moved on to bigger and better things after that, but we're talking about retaining players. It's very important not to frustrate players or you'll lose them forever.
I really like the Zaraj-Token-Idea because even if it takes me 6 months, or even a year, to earn up the required tokens to get an item - at least I know I'm making progress towards it. And that saves my morale, and keeps me raiding. And I don't feel like this idea makes the game any easier, or more challenging. It takes out the guess work and makes me feel like I'm moving forward in my progression. This system will get people to raid stuff they otherwise wouldn't volunteer for, because they get rewarded just for participating.
We lost so very many players because of loot issues, and I know we're not going to be able to afford to lose players to loot issues, which is why I bring this up.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
Just to follow up on the Zaraj arena, coin idea, we could totally turn off "guild manipulated" points and use that for an autogrant of raid points, such that each raid mob had a coin value, that was auto-updated for every member in the raid when the mob was killed. Heck, we could even prorate it by level, such that a 50 killing Jagund would get more coins than a 55 killing Jagund, although that may not be entirely popular. There is really quite a bit you could do with such a system. Its really no different than what EQ and other games do now by awarding raid currency in addition to mob drops. I don't have an issue with letting a person, who has raided for months straight for a drop but been unlucky, go to the arena and use, say, 50 guild/raid points to buy a piece of raid loot. Just gotta balance rate of point gain with the cost of the loot, and make sure you can't dupe the points somehow.
You could take it a step further and award additional points for server first kills as well.
You could take it a step further and award additional points for server first kills as well.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
The question is, do you get points for any raid, or do you get boss-only points. (Shendu points, Zaraax points, etc?) Because if you could kill Jagund 100 times, to get something off Shendu, that seems unfair. On the other hand, it also seems silly to make them per boss.
So I guess it would have be something like loot tiers. Drops off the Entrance Wing of APW would be, say, 1000 coins, and drops off the Basement of APW would be 2000 coins. Drops off the highest tier overlands would be 3000 coins. (Coin amounts are just for examples sake).
Zaraj arena used actual coin drops as actual need-to-loot items, so I'm not sure that's the best example (letting 24 people loot stuff is always a pain when you're trying to give out real loot). But for all caps named, you used to get 1-2 Plat Coins for faction plat. I'm not a dev so I have no idea how it works, but it seems like it would be better to emulate the coins since they automatically go into your bags and are already set to drop from bosses only.
I really don't recommend giving lower levels more coins. That just seems odd, unpopular like you said. I could see that causing problems between players.
Also need to consider if these coins can be traded to other toons, or if they're soulbound. I wouldn't mind if they were account bound.
So I guess it would have be something like loot tiers. Drops off the Entrance Wing of APW would be, say, 1000 coins, and drops off the Basement of APW would be 2000 coins. Drops off the highest tier overlands would be 3000 coins. (Coin amounts are just for examples sake).
Zaraj arena used actual coin drops as actual need-to-loot items, so I'm not sure that's the best example (letting 24 people loot stuff is always a pain when you're trying to give out real loot). But for all caps named, you used to get 1-2 Plat Coins for faction plat. I'm not a dev so I have no idea how it works, but it seems like it would be better to emulate the coins since they automatically go into your bags and are already set to drop from bosses only.
I really don't recommend giving lower levels more coins. That just seems odd, unpopular like you said. I could see that causing problems between players.
Also need to consider if these coins can be traded to other toons, or if they're soulbound. I wouldn't mind if they were account bound.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
If we used the guild points system to handle it, they would be virtual coins (well, virtual virtual coins more accurately). They wouldn't have to take up bag space at all, just increment the points within the guild interface. The downside to doing it like that though is that you'd have to be in a guild to get them. Unguilded folks tagging along wouldn't get anything. A physical coin might be better for that reason. Whichever way it went though, it could certainly be implemented without a whole lot of difficulty.