Firstly, the point i was trying to make above is that if you are dieing and releasing every 5 minutes during a raid there is a fair chance you suck and deserve to be benched for the next target. But now that i have been directly engaged in this conversation, here is what i think: Releasing and zerging does happen in some encounters but not in others. It also happens to different degrees - sometimes it may be as little as one person, sometimes i have seen half a raid utilise this, other times it is one or two people doing it multiple times in a row. In my opinion i don't really have a problem with that, but i definitely see where you are coming from from a designer point of view. The main reason people release are twofold: to reget diplomacy buffs and to not burden the healers with long in-combat resurrection spells (the cleric and shaman have very long cast timers that are quite often delayed due to the mob you are fighting resetting your cast timer mid-cast). The main barrier to a lot of encounters from getting rezzed after death is not having diplomacy buffs. Whichever way you look at it diplomacy buffs are quite powerful, and can be make or break for certain classes in certain situations. Just as an example, if your main tank dies during sparkles first 20%, you want them released and to reget diplomacy buffs, or they're gonna have a bad time. In addition, a lot of encounters have an aoe which can one shot any recently rezzed player with low hp and no buffs. Karax, Sil'mr-Li and Teraxes are prime examples of this - once you are dead you are pretty much out of the fight due to the HP penalty imposed by having no buffs. Therefore, in order to make resurrection in combat work and be the main go-to for raiders, you would need to look at cast times, immediate survivability after getting rezzed, long term usefulness of the player without diplomacy buffs.
The difference is that a healer has to quit healing and rez you, or not quit healing and you are back anyway. If you can be back anyway in the same condition as if you were rezzed then the battle rez means nothing, it is a worthless spell. I still think if you change the death mechanic to buffs leaving on release rather than death it makes the decision to battle rez much more appealing. If you also make all of the healer battle rezzes 3 second cast times or maybe even 2 seconds with a 2 minute refresh this will promote battle rezzing as well. No one is going to quit healing for 10 seconds to rez someone. It becomes a tactical choice rather than a given release and return. Hence the "Zerg" term. Reducing rez sickness duration incrementally from release to out of combat rez to battle rez would also sway the decision. Maybe that is too much sway, but a thought
As and when developer time is spent coding whatever changes have been decided upon, could you please also take a look at situations where players are simply not getting the resurrection confirmation box? I do not know what causes this, but sometimes no matter how many times and by how many different characters a player has been resurrected, he/she will not receive that confirmation window. Sometimes, /rezaccept works for them. Other times, only in-combat resurrection spells will work for them. And yet other times, they will have to release to be able to be resurrected, the worst case scenario being for them to have to log out and come back.
Whenever you come across this bug, report it and provide as much information as possible so that we can find it and fix it.
This is already on the bug list TLock, I know personally I have bugged it more than a few times over the last 6 years, it's an old bug that I think shares, or is similar to chunking and getting raid group bugs (7 in group and people showing as dead)...
Still, the best thing to do is report it. It helps us know which bugs are current and which ones are no longer an issue. =)
One thing I think most of us have gotten in the habit of is dismissing old bugs since we've reported them time and time again and never got them fixed. You can only report something so many times and banging your head before you just give up.
I think a completely different mechanic should be in place rather than the one currently in place. One that accomplishes goals of both the players and developers. These goals as laid out appear to me to be this, players possibly see what the developers are trying to do wish for the penalty to only effect the players and scenarios that the developers are trying to control whether or not they agree with the change, and developers want to control zerging in such a way that they can have freedom to place new mobs in places without fear of this tactic becoming the primary means of defeating the targets. I propose a delay on rez/release controlled by the number of recent deaths and no stat penalties. This would have a very small delay on solo'ers/groupers who die multiple times while doing a corpse run or whatever and progressively keep raiders thinking that another death would be bad as it would take them out of the fight even longer. I won't propose how long these penalties would need to be as I have not raided in Vanguard and I do not know the consequences of what I would propose. I do know that it would impact me while grouping/soloing a lot less. I do like some of the other suggestions as well about keeping buffs if you get rezzed instead of releasing and things like that.
Just want to point out a few things, but I'm not gonna go into a long list of quotes here to do it. So: @Tinqu: Getting rezzed in the same chunk on Shendu event only resets the event if you released first and are rezzed back into the event. If you are rezzed in the same chunk, from within the event itself, without releasing, it does not reset the event. Unless that has very recently changed? @Ghostchild: @Jakkal: As far as pushing civics bringing the community together, it certainly has not been my experience that pushing dips before raid was some magic moment where the entire guild held hands and sang "Kumbaya." More like the hour+ before every raid where the same 4-5 players pushed civics while others continued right on with their mining in KDQ, showing up only at the last minute to raid. Some even had the nerve to ask for "help with a Hael" while we were pushing dips for the raid they were about to participate in. So personally, it would please me immensely not to have to push dips before raid by myself, raising dips in 2 cities solo, and helping with a third. I will not miss it one bit! (And I do like Diplo as a sphere very much.) @Kilsin: Waiting for rez sickness to subside seems little different than waiting for people who release to travel all over the bloody known world to get diplo buffs refreshed while we babysit the encounter in idle mode till they get back. @Jakkal: As far as making pressure on the healers to keep people in the game--isn't that what they are supposed to be doing? I know for me, I take dying very personally, regardless of whether there is a big penalty or not. I just don't like it, period. Healers are supposed to keep people in the game, and I do not see the pressure on healers now as being near the level of what I have seen before. Try healing a tank that has 13.5k HP, is getting hit for 5.5-6k per hit, and your only decent healing spell has a ten (10) second cast time! So I'm just not feeling it. @Diaboloco: I like the idea that a player loses buffs on release. I absolutely agree that a combat rez should let a player keep buffs. Maybe a regular rez too--not as sure about that one though. Still, players will be releasing and rifting all over the bloody known world before coming back that way too. @Karii: Difference between rezzing every 20 secs and releasing every 20 secs? Now I know that there are any encounters where this would actually happen, but the theory is sound. Releasing is something you do all on your own after you are dead! Getting rezzed is something that another player must do for you. So rezzing makes for limitations, (another person's time and attention, mana usage etc.) while releasing does not. Releasing is something you do all by yourself, while you are dead! Just not pukka, old boy, just not. Personally, I lean more toward what Filzin said--I do not believe civic buffs are totally required to win against raid encounters. While I would probably prefer his idea of no civics to how things are now, my personal preference is for the system Graye proposed here: http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/index.php?threads/a-civic-solution.1403/page-3 I also totally agree with TLoch when he said players were never meant to travel all over the bloody known world and use every buff from every city in every encounter.
I don't understand why people want to keep buffs, you died...as in that's it, you are dead, you should be stripped of everything, you are lucky you get to keep your gear and everything in your bags! why now should we also keep all these magical buffs? I do not want this implemented personally, I am already concerned we are becoming to overpowered. Schiller, a few select riftway buffs and straight back to the encounter to be raid buffed on the fly still with rez sickness takes 2 mins at most. All your replies sound quite smug, like you are the one who dictates what happens here, you are not. Replying to every ones post to state your opinion over theirs is not a very good look at all.
I have to agree with Kilsin on that.. your dead, your buffs should be gone, etc.. There should be some negative effect, you were just brought back to life! (prolly more than there currently is) ... but as for releasing and coming back? zerging? I think we have different definitions of what zerging is... so.. to make it clear on "mine".. Zerging - A tactic where numerous players would die (the majority of the raid force), release from their corpse(s), and then run back into the fight to do as much damage as they could before they die again, (knowing and expecting to die again). The players continue to do this repeatedly dying numerous times until the mob is overwhelmed/defeated. So, as you can see.. I do not see anywhere in VG that this currently happens (well maybe one summoner it used to in IoG). So trying to re-write the code to prevent a tactic that is not currently used, and trying to change one of the core aspects of the game to try to prevent a single tactic is well... a waste of time. Players will come up with another way around it eventually. @Shiller, since you directed one directly at me, You helped to make my point.. What is the difference to ME (the player) if I release, get buffs, and fly back.. or take a rez? (well first i dont have buffs, other than that, None).. whats the difference if i lay there dead, take a rez.. or if i release, get buffs then get a rez? to the individual getting resurected? no difference except in one way I have buffs.. So as for the other players, ok.. its harder on a another healer to take time to rez me.. ok, sure so i release, get buffs and get a rez back in.. so where's the difference there? It doesn't affect ME either way.. so why should there be differences coded into the system that dictate which I do? there is only 1 out of 3 scenarios that it is not a difference, should we change the design of the game based on 1 in 3? I don't think so.. the more the developers try to dictate players actions in a scenario, the more creative they become and come up with things that the dev's never thought of.. so what happens then, every time the players come up with a 'tactic' that the dev's didnt expect, they go back and re-write the system code to compensate for it?...
isnt this how bows , and subsequently , all ranged weapons wound up being nerfed? an encounter was being beaten by ranged weapons in an unexpected way and suddenly all ranged weapons had to have a range nerf. (although actually it started with bows and then moved on to other things as it became absured to have things being thrown farther than a war bow could shoot ) . The answer keeps coming back to what tloch has already said. It isn't currrent content that is the issue. It is new content that they are trying to change several game mechanics for in advance of release even though he admits they have already put some odd anti-zerging mechanisms in game in some areas. To me, it still sounds like an issue with civics more than anything else and we haven't heard anything from the team in the civics thread to this point. Having said all that, the proposed healer changes sound good.
I have no idea what guild you're in, but maybe Ghost and I are from outlier guilds. We have teams of people that usually go out to the same cities to push the diplos there. And we just chat it up in guild and vent while we push the diplos. It's enjoyable and somewhat relaxing for us. Okay, I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Yes healers are responsible for healing. My cleric is often one of our main healers in our raids. However as has been mentioned many times, this is about new content not old. And a lot of the newer content is leaning towards people having no choice about the hits they're taking. For example, when you're meleeing the chickens, you can take the risk yourself of staying in and eating the rain AOE, or you can back off. In Karax, the AOE hurts, but it's easily manageable by the healers. In Shendu, you run like heck from the infernos but you still have a lot of control over the damage you take there. There are wise choices that many dps classes can make about how much damage they can take before they become a healer's mana sink. This is part of what's really fun with coordinating raids between 24 people, all working within the balance. You walk into the AOE, that's your risk. You pull aggro, that's your problem. But the latest crop of fights all have these huge AOEs, DOTs or damages that hit the dps classes no matter what they do. COB is a good example of this. No diplos, all hard work and effort. But less control. And as someone that's had to play the cleric for these events, I can tell you that it's more than just keeping everyone topped off, it's a matter of keeping them ALIVE. But that's fine, right, that's what a healer's job is for. Then you add in these god awful rez sickness ideas, and suddenly once you've died once, you're not in the fight at all anymore. Rezzing you is a waste of time and mana, and will cause other people to die. So once you die, over something you have no control over, you're out of the fight. This may or may not mean a wipe for the group mind you. But it almost guarantees that this unlucky person is out of the fight. This is what I mean when I say it's putting even more stress on the healers. And if fights continue in this direction, then I feel like it's going to be comparible to TSW. Except I can't suddenly decide to become a healer on certain classes of mine (I guess I could farm a ton of bandages, but even they don't keep me alive through some of this stuff). Making fights hard and challenging is fine. Making them entirely healer dependant is too much for the healers I think. Give the dps more choices for managing their damage. Then if they get hit and die, it's their own fault, not the healers for letting them die.
Haha--that's quite funny. Me, dictate what happens here? How do you figure stating my opinion equates to dictating what happens here? You lost me on that one Bud! Can't see the connection at all. As far as replying to everyone's post, I do believe you have 6 posts in this thread--and I would be hard pressed to remember ANY post you didn't reply to at all. I do believe you state your opinion whenever and on whatever you please. As I came to the conversation late, I chose to reply in one post with 5 parts--so how is that different from your six posts in this thread already? Stating my opinion over theirs? I stated some opinions in opposition to others, but I do not know how I could "talk over" anyone in print. If that is not what you mean, then I do not have a clue. If writing an opinion in opposition to other's opinions were not allowed, this board's post count would be reduced by 90% at least. You lost me on the smug part too--no idea.
That was not directed at my current guild, but was a meticulously accurate and honest description of past experiences. Actually, I have done very little raiding lately--RL time issues. It is nice that you guys-n-gals have that relationship and experience. I bet you would have the same experience though, even if diplos did not need to be pushed, much as I am starting to have on our "alt night." Just good fun without a lot of pressure. Okay, I see what you mean here. I really hate those AoE mechanics, but I think I hate the type AoE mechanic used in TSW dungeons worse--the ones that one-shot even the strongest tank unless he can "twitchy-finger-jump-around-contort-and by the way-hold your mouth right while doing it" type mechanics. I still believe Graye's idea of localized diplo buffs, tailored to the event, would be the best method. If they were like a bard song, you would get them upon being rezzed anyway, and no more rifting all over the world just to get rezzed back with buffs.
Laugh all you like but don't play dumb, you know exactly what I meant. Dismissive quotes and opinions and yet half of them were either incorrect or you misunderstood the poster. My 6 posts were either replying to the developers request (seeking feedback) or agreeing/discussing with other posters, I did not fire off a shopping list of names in one post and either dismiss their opinion or completely misunderstand their posts and make myself look silly (this time anyway ). Read your post again.
As an alternative to battle rezzes having more stats on rez, how about allowing dead bodies to be dragged in the same way tombstones are. I can only speak from my own experience but every AoE effect has a set range on it. If you could drag the body beyond that range, you could rez with impunity.
We were able to do that quite a while ago if you remember, kind of like dragging a tombstone and you could also rope corpses even in battle. That was changed I think due to some players/guilds exploiting but not sure on the specifics for it. I just know we use to be able to do it and the Devs put a stop to it.
