yea that do, cleric can go from self buffing from 1100(old ) to over 2100(new)hp self buffnot counting the Hp from the new con eithe. yea that really isn't balanced. while the end result may come out to the same raid wise , like other people have posted it throws classes out of balance heavily in solo and group. The Dk and this disc have been my examples cause these classes buff off of chains, and I think they need to be looked at as well.
That's like saying giving Bloodmages more mitigation makes them OP'ed in a group scenario. In paper it will look like a valid statement. But when you play a bloodmage in a group you will soon find out what exactly you rely on for survival and dps. As far as cleric goes, their survability comes from sources other than HPs and constitution. Let us go to the math that matters. Assuming small groups have 4 people or lesser and these groups have no structure (i.e. no holy trinity or no healers in certain case). Assuming you only have groups of "unique" classes we have a possible combination of 32745* for a 2 to 4 man group. But in the real word you can have duplicates of classes. So that gives us a possible combination of 50609* for a 2 to 4 man group. * Not quite the honors math student, so math may contain errors. Given such a high number of possible combinations and also given the fact that all classes can be built differently to focus on a specific playstyle which may render some attributes useful and some useless in certain scenarios. So I personally believe there's no concept of this group balance based on buffs today and there's certainly no need for one to exist after this change. There's just too many scenarios to even make a conclusive statement. But I can see how it can add a "sense" of imbalance in the solo world where an buffless class is unbuffed. But again it all depends on the scenarios and the class and mob involved. The current proposed BBO will enable the "buffed" ones to have a few points of attributes more. Halving the points from the current proposal and just having the top two buffs stack would be more balanced. This would be a cleaner slate to start from even though probably not easiest.
Example (again values could be tweaked down a little more or up if needed and just a suggestion). Bloodmage - Favor of the Life Giver Fills your target's raid with power. +71 Con +35 Vitality +80 Intelligence +55 Wisdom +750 Hit Points +7.5 Hit Point Regeneration +200 Physical Absorption +1.135% Flurry Resist @55 +1.135% Rampage Resist @55 Cleric - Titanic Reverence Fills your target's raid with power. +70 Strength +50 Constitution +50 Dexterity +75 Intelligence +50 Wisdom +958 Hit Points +5 Hit Point Regen +5 Endurance per 6 seconds +1.135% Flurry Resist @55 +1.135% Rampage Resist @55 +837 AC +205 Spiritual Resist Necromancer - Favor of the Deathdealer Fills your target's raid with power. +50 Constitution +99 Intelligence +200 Cold Resist +150 Physical Resist Buffed Character +70 Str (Cleric) +121 Constitution (Bloodmage + Cleric) +35 Vit (Cleric) +179 Intelligence (Bloodmage + Necro) +105 Wisdom (BM + Cleric) .. and so on.
That would be mych more complicated to implement/maintain. The biggest thing I see as a factor, is the desparity between the classes. Just like DPS, every buff class is going to complain that they don't provide the most desired buff. Narrowing the gaps among the buffs ought to alleviate that. It will provide the best of everything in a raid, but won't make players feel hindered in group content for only having access to 1-3 buff classes.
From my perspective as a Psi i am a bit concerned/confused by some of the changes, but also can see what is attempted to be done, so please take the comments below as just my opinion for the mix. The Psi changes seem to be: +12 wis, +52 int, + 94 arcane resistance, +1000 energy apx. -5% evasion (intended?) , +1400AC (intended?) Whereas previously the psi MMF buff was pretty strong and a sought after buff the new BBO changes seem a bit mediocre in places. Yes we have a lot of types of stat buffs within the actual buff itself, but they are no longer seem to be as specialist or specifically beneficial as they were previously (in some contexts). I can see the changes would make a self buffed solo Psi a very strong class, I can also see the changes would make Psi a decent choice for group play - this is good. I am a little concerned however with what they now will bring to a raid being: 1400 energy, 18 energy regen and +15% accuracy. Some classes seem to have had huge increases in some buff areas whereas ours have been minimal. Currently I am unsure as to how to look at this as I dont want others not to have buff specialities, but at the same time why so disparate amounts of change? Previously Psi Int and Wis were the same values @ 98, now they are 150 and 110 - why are they still not similar values? Resists were changed only in a very minimal way - why does mental or arcane need to be restricted to 200-260, whereas other classes get 400?. Perhaps change mental to 400 for psi? and sorc arcane to 400 (like cleric for spiritual, bm for phys, nec for cold). I am not overly concerned about the BBO changes in general as i can see some of it working, but as a Psi would like to see the return of our evasion, and perhaps something more useful than being 3rd highest AC buffer and put it into spell crit or something more caster related. Part of my buff/class fustration is that I have always had a problem with the huge EE effects with energy regen per sec that some of the new items have brought and how they massively cheapen our core buff potential - and the new changes just solidify this. A level 35ish item is only 3 energy per sec less than the best lvl 55 psi buff! - this is not right at all. As this is basically the speciality with BBO then it doesn't feel that great. So either fix the EE amounts on items or make the +energy regen of our buff reflective of a proper scale/proper potential at 55. I have always tried to play my class understanding that my characters dps and playstyle would be different/lower than other dps casters due to the large amount of utility that we have (included strong psi buffs) however with this levelling out of the buff playing field I am a little concerned that there will be enough group or raid content that actually requires CC or utility to really now justify these statements. (Note: This is mainly a raid concern), so I hope that this is considered from a playstyle point of view as i really like my class and I will do further testing as I can. Thanks, Fazz
I guess from my perspective as a non Psi, my favorite part of the buff is the refresh haste, because it is unique to psi's and is overall really strong for almost any class. I agree with you on this, it was crazy to me that these per second regen items were implemented in the first place. They are so far above anything else before it gear wise it is just shocking. Before these new items I am pretty sure most if not all regen assigned to gear was done on a per 6 second basis. But I suppose this is a conversation for a different thread.
i like your 2 buff proposal, but the current bbo on test is messed up and is a class balancing issue in its current form
Two things i was curious about, for the shaman since it seems we're loosing the 20% spell haste, while i can understand loosing it for a buff what does that mean for ones self? That means All shaman spells will take 20% longer to cast. Will they're at least own spells be compensated somehow for the lose of the 20% spell haste? That means every spell the shaman cast, including heals/nukes, debuffs and etc will take 20% longer to cast which will be a net lose of dps and hps both.It seemed to me that the shaman was balanced around always having this 20% spell haste. But if we loose that as part of our group buff does that mean we get 20% cast time taken off all our spells or do we simply loose that 20% spell haste and are now suppose to cast 20% slower? Secondly has anyone looked at bloodmage symbiotes? particularly ones that add a flat value like plated or frenzied? Or are those not changed yet, i wasn't sure. Will those be upgraded or will they stay the same? Any feedback/info/response would be great.
You won't be losing the 20% spell haste it will be included in the next iteration. It will be folded into the Hayatet buff. The Shaman buffs are also going to not be aura they will just be BBO type buffs. Anything not the hour long group class buffs that everyone has are not being touched except they are being set to stack all the time.
At this point we are trying to keep everything 100% the same for raiders as much as we can. Once this has been achieved we can move onto group/solo balance and then finally class balance. This is really part of an overall larger design philosophy of fixing the foundation so that we can build new and interesting content that is balanced without having to fight our internal limitations.
NO NO NO AND NO!!!! Just because we didn't have buffs before doesn't mean we should get them now for the sake of "Balance." I KNEW we were going to end up going down this road. There is a reason there are different classes in the game. It's because they are DIFFERENT!! If I wanted to play a caster, I would play a caster. If I wanted to play a healer, I would play a healer. If I wanted to play a Warrior because I gets the best group agro management vs a Pally who gets heals and can tank, I would do that. Just because one class can do something doesn't mean ALL classes should be able to. Rogues don't have any buffs yet you don't see rogues asking to become a buffing class. Psi's don't have any heals yet you don't see them asking for healing spells. Fixing the current code to enable the developers to remove caps and scale player power more efficiently should NOT include friggen class revamps and changes at the same time! Heck, as it stands already, the team is making huge changes to solo and group power with the way this BS Overwriting system is being implemented. IF THIS IS TRULY THE INTENT then why not implement the idea that EVERYTHING STACKS and then NERF where needed when it comes to the stats that are currently capped? You didn't keep the current All in one buffs the same. You had to rework them to fit within this new Overwriting code which in turn drastically increases the power for solo and group settings. You used the full raid buffs as the baseline which is fine but once you leave that play style, you skew the balance of all of the rest of the encounters in the game. And let's not even get into the Shaman discussion. Whatever happened to K.I.S.S. Keep it simple sam! It's not hard to scale for future itemization and encounter difficulty if we know that Mr. Sorcerer got 5 Int buff at level 1, 10 at level 11, 15 at level 21 and so on and so on. Mr. Pally had 10 HP at level 1, 20 HP at level 11, etc etc etc. Now we have to figure out between 15 classes who has the best ONE stat but if they're not in the raid/group then who gets the next best and so on to make sure crap is balanced? I just feel like this is being WAY to overthought and we're past the point of no return so now we get to listen to you try to FIX this new awesome system you're trying to sell to us so we're ok with it. I don't mind change especially when it's to fix/improve/advance something. What I DO mind is being told AFTER THE FACT that change is being CONSIDERED and this is the direction we're thinking about but we want your feedback meanwhile the REALITY of the situation is, you had already decided on the direction you were taking, work had already begun on it and regardless of what was suggested by our early feedback BBO was going to be the reality! So now instead of working with you from the start, you end up with a faction that is held hostage and trying to give feedback so as to not fubar the system completely and a faction that is just downright upset and not willing to help implement said system because we don't believe in it AT ALL! (obviously I fall in bucket number two) I said all of this day one and even predicted this would be the outcome but was, as usual, told not to worry and everything was still in the consideration/discovery phase. Lies!
So you're saying only Hayatet will get the 20% spell haste. So that means that Hayatet will not only nuke 20% faster than bear and wolf shaman but also heal/debuff/dps 20% faster unless you're saying the spell haste they get only effects their nukes which it sounds like it doesn't. If only Hayatet shamans get the 20% spell haste that automatically makes them the best healer of the three patrons, automatically. In comparable gear and at the same level, the fact that Hayatet shamans cast heal/debuff/dps 20% faster automatically makes them better healers/debuffers/dps than bear/wolf shamans. I realize in a raid that evens out, but it seems to me all your thinking about is a raid setting, in a solo/small group/full group setting the Hayatet shaman automatically becomes the best healer/debuffer/dps of the three shaman patrons for the simple fact that they cast 20% faster. If you're going to give the Hayatet shaman 20% spell haste it needs to be given to all three patrons or simply take it away from all three shamans otherwise in a solo/small group/group setting the Hayatet shaman will always be the best healer in comparable gear/level no matter what. You can not deny that the if a bear/wolf shaman is compared healing or debuffing or dps wise to a Hayatet shaman who cast 20% faster the Hayatet shaman will always give out more hps/dps and have less downtime from deubffing because of the simple fact that they cast faster. That can not be denied, less cast time means less down time casting and more hps and dps, why should a Hayatet shaman be a better healer, bring more healing and damage per second and have less downtime casting than the other two patrons? That doesn't seem fair, so either all patrons need the 20% spell haste, take it away from all three or compensate it somehow to the wolf/bear shamans where they can match the healing/debuffing/damage of the Hayatet.
Nobody has said that non buffing classes are going to get new buffs, the only buff that is going to change so far is the sorc one, a buff that was subpar and it had to be changed. Anyhow if the developers decide to add buffs to non buffing classes that would be in order to keep solo and small group balance and would not affect raiding or grouping much. The BBO system is really the only possible system right now. If every buff stacked all the buffs would have to be nerfed big time, most buffs would have to be halved, that would change solo and small group balance and therefore the dev team would have to devote their limited time to rebalance the whole game. A “best 2 buffs” system may be a good alternative but it would be much harder to balance than a BBO system and it would require many changes to the code… even if coding that system was trivial it would still be harder to balance than a BBO system. Let’s be honest here, Vanguard's development team is tiny, so they have to simplify development. Switching to a BBO system makes adding buffs something almost trivial. The easier the things are for the development team the more things they will be able to deliver. In my opinion, right now the number one priority for this game is making things simpler FOR DEVELOPERS… players are secondary now, at least until the team is able to add new content faster. Vanguard is a niche game, it barely has players, SOE is not devoting many resources to the game and that's not going to change. The dev team has to make the best of their scarce resources and sometimes it means changing things in order to make things easier for them.
sad and disappointed in this. its backwards. while I understand many are waiting on content and I raid when I can as well. its just backwards, and to me sounds ridiculous. it all should begin with class balancing then progress, not go to the end then backwards. its going to create the dreaded alpha group....
The problem with the balance shift with the proposed BBO is that player power is already out of check and too high. Why on earth they are giving solo/group players more power is beyond me when the entire content pre-55 is already trivial. If they are increasing everyone's power then they need to retune all existing content to be harder. Effectively equalling out the player power increase. I do not see this happening. This BBO system is the same as dumbing everything in the game down to easy mode. This may not be their goal, but this is what they are doing. A "Best 2 buffs", or perhaps a archetype stacking buff method is the only way to do this and keep platyer balance relatively even accross all levels of play.
the customer should always be first. that's the core of any business. all I can think of with this new BBO system is the days of silius... and the train wreck him and his team caused to this game and class balance ... All of this needs to be done on test including class balancing before it ever reaches live... they do not need to release this in a partial patch or segments. it all needs to be finished and completed on test before it goes live... (all of it)
I think something was missed. Right now on live all shaman have a buff that gives 20% spell haste. On Test within the new buffs, that part is missing. The Rakuur and Turgin Patrons give more instant cast melee abilities and the Hayatet receives longer spell cast type abilities. This difference makes the Hayatets a little behind the others in the DPS department. The initial request was to give the spell haste back to all three of them as the non-patron buff. Oracle's Sight I is a level 1 ability that gives more energy and 20% spell haste on defensive target's group. Just a F.Y.I., My main Shaman is a Hayatet that is grouped with my wife's and Daughter's Shamans they play the other Patrons. It is a fun group.
Yeah... I have to believe that nobody working on this project has played a shaman, or someone in there would know that the spell haste was for everyone, not just Hayatets. (Granted, Hayatet needs some boosting compared to the others if you ask me, but such issues aren't supposed to be part of the buff revamp, as I understand it.) If spell haste only goes to Hayatet, then that's a reduction in power to Rakurr and Tuurgin, which we've been told is "a bug, period." Fix plx.
So I can't actually fold it into the Base Shaman buff as that ability is full. However I can add it to each patron buff.
