With heavy hearts, we announce the sunset for Vanguard

Discussion in 'News and Announcements' started by Yaviey, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Cyph Member

    *sigh* I'm not sure what to write in regards to Vanguard being shut down. It's a game that I've tried to get into many times, the most recent late last year, but due to real life, I was never able to give it the attention it deserves. As it has been said many times before, and I'm sure many of you agree, it is a gem in the rough. It has a community like no other, both thanks to players and SoE staff. I don't expect anyone to have remembered me (and if they do, it would be through helping a newbie) but I would like to extend my thanks and condolences at the same time.

    See you on the other side (EQN I guess?) and thank you for the fond memories.
  2. Ronangar New Member

    What a fantastic game this has been, even if i've been away for a while, and been on and off, i can still remember harvesting materials for my first ship, felt like some achievment, no mmo today gives me that feeling of satisfaction.
    After more harvesting, i made a bigger ship, and gave the old one away to some player With 20 silver in his Pocket.
    This always was a great community, With great admins joining in every now and then making this game what it is, to bad its soon to be over. So to all of you (and the old guildmates of Origin) i salute you, and for sure i'll see some of you when the sun sets at the end of this month.
    Isoel.2, Enkur and Kilsin like this.
  3. Goldrock New Member

    Ive lost faith in alll things sony if it doesnt have eq in the title you can be sure it will get canned eventually ive watched a few games ive love disapear from soe .swg,Mxo,potbs,agency which never got off the ground even after a few years of hyping all to hell.Whatever happened to the keeping games up no matter how high the player base is thats one thing that made vanguard great the small player base do us a favor give the game and tools away to someone who cares or let someone run a emu of it.
  4. Skorian New Member

    Not so dedicated I would do this myself, but what about, as far as I know, the first MMO protest/rally? Players set up a location to rally/protest the closing down of Vanguard. Bring the media and get it covered. Maybe if people make enough noise they would get more support for Vanguard and save it. I would like that, even if I wouldn't be able to go.

    Sony could even help save their game and make themselves money in the process.

    Just a thought I had. If you like the idea, advertise it in game get people interested.
  5. eslake New Member

    I cannot leave this without comment.

    The Playing population are not tasked with maintaining the game, nor improving on it, nor creating new content so as to entice new players to arrive. Entropy is eternal, and players will always be leaving any given game, but a necessary aspect of design and development on such a game must always be to find ways to entice more into arriving than are leaving.

    The quoted text clearly leans toward blaming the player-base for leaving the game, rather than admitting that the developers simply Failed in their responsibility to keep the game viable.

    Also, every time the word "old" is used in conjunction with a game's closing or suggestions there-of, I quite frankly get upset.

    I sat in an hours-long meeting back in 98 or 99, with Raph Koster, Joye McBurnett and several others, discussing the simple reality of Online Games and game life cycle.
    Most of them held fast to the idea that the natural life-cycle of games meant that Ultima Online would not remain viable much beyond early 2000, if it hadn't spun down even earlier.

    I simply could not express clearly enough that Online Games gave us the ability to eliminate those cycles, that the option to endlessly upgrade and improve, to continue making the game 'New' allowed that these games could -for all practical purposes- thrive indefinitely.

    Unfortunately, no major company has so far been willing to test that theory. True, many of the earliest games are still online. The Realm (first) and Meridian 59 (second.. or first, depending on your definition), Ultima Online and EverQuest, even many far less well-known games, such as T4CY are still out there to play.

    Age is not a justification for a game's decline, but an Excuse.
    Faerar, Isoel.2 and Jehlicka like this.
  6. eslake New Member

    I don't know about the legal standpoint, but hopefully Sony's legal department would not have allowed you to enter an exclusivity contract with a 3rd party provider for any part of the game, or any service - and you are still free to simply remove that part and replace it with something of your own make or freely available.

    I do hope you misspoke when you stated you did not know if it would be 'possible' from a 'technical standpoint' given that software is, by its very nature, without such limits.
    If it has been done by anyone, it can be done by Sony, and high school students with no education in programmer are pulling off more complicated code transitions to pirate games across platforms for which they were not designed.

    In the end it comes down to the Game itself being only two things.
    The layout of the world and placement of creatures and things in it.
    And the database of accounts-players-characters-their levels, stats, gear, etc to the finest detail.

    Drawing on only these two things, the game could be retooled to any level, from overhead 2D or iso, to full HD 3D under the Cry engine or similar.
    The Game - or what people want to see continue, is not the specific software as it is currently, but the world they play in, the friends they play in it With, and the things they can do while there.
    None of that is bound to the specific software, only the Data used to populate it.
  7. Seffrid Member

    You quote SOE as saying the technical difficulties in running and updating it in a way the players deserve is the reason for closing it, and you say that quote clearly leans towards blaming the player-base for leaving the game?

    In fairness to SOE, it does no such thing. They don't even mention players leaving the game, they only mention the technical difficulties involved in running and updating it.

    I'm as unhappy about the closure as anyone, having played the game on and off since beta, but making such false accusations in relation to their reasons for closing it does no-one any good at all. Perhaps you meant to quote a different extract from SOE's comments on the closure? Your own comments were certainly wholly unrelated to the extract you did quote.
  8. Kilrane New Member

    Will they be releasing the coding so that the community can make a server if it so chooses?
  9. Seffrid Member

    No, they've made it clear that they cannot do that. It's generally believed that there are legal/contractural issues (the game wasn't developed by SOE in the first place) and security/authentication issues (common to their other titles) why that simply isn't possible.
  10. Kilrane New Member

    More likely they wish to do something with the engine and thus cannot release the rights to it.
  11. eslake New Member

    You are correct. I was considering Both of the comments and forgot which I was working with.

    I intended to use the one citing the declining player population - as tho it were beyond their control.

    This one was regarding the claims about how difficult and costly it is to fix, maintain, etc., Does it not strike you as peculiar that these professionally trained, paid programmers and analysts are claiming it would be Too Difficult to do something - that on a regular basis, Hobbyists with no formal education and for no pay at all, disassemble / deobfuscate these games and make those very changes.

    I am not saying it is always easy, nor Often.
    But the difficulty in repairing the game in its present state is not a spontaneous thing, nor a surprise. It is the result of Negligence.

    Game development is much like matters of health - Prevention carries a much higher return on investment than Cure.

    Small regular updates and improvements are worth far more than a full expansion, which takes more manhours, more $ and works only as a Short Term boost. The ongoing introduction of new content or options Within the current content, motivates players to stay, which in turn generates New players Person to Person advertisement.

    I hope that makes as much sense as it seems to me, It's almost 5am and I haven't slept. So a dancing porcupine with a kilt and fedora would probably make sense right now.
  12. Halcon2014 New Member


    What's really really sad here is that in shutting the game down you are doing the biggest possible disservice to the loyal fans of this game.
    I speak only for myself here, but don't remember asking you to decide for me what the best gameplay experiences are.

    Vanguard had plenty of issues since launch, and I still loved the game because the good always outweighed the bad by far, and the main reason why I kept my all access pass for a very long time. I canceled it for a brief period due to real life issues, but when I came back (currently have a yearly plan again) it was again because of Vanguard. Yes, with all its bugs and issues (I'm not blind), it provided the kind of gameplay experience I just couldn't find elsewhere. EQ2 is a great game, but it still isn't Vanguard.

    Now, I understand that resources are needed to keep the game going, and that those resources may be needed elsewhere, but I really doubt that those resources imply a huge burden for your company, especially considering all the years you neglected this game and any kind of development for it, and even then, the game still had its small but very faithful and loyal fanbase, which also happens to be a paying fanbase.
    Free to play only occurred in the later stage of the game's lifetime, and with the restrictions in place, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the loyal fans kept their subscriptions, something it might be difficult for you to verify because many of us probably had all access passes, and you were not registering those as Vanguard subscriptions.

    But even if the numbers have dropped drastically, I think the game is easily cash flow positive, considering the current development and updates for the game. I know that may not be good enough for you, but companies like Funcom, with all their financial troubles, keep supporting all of their MMOs, including Age of Conan, which I'm pretty sure has a small playerbase (I have a sub there), and Anarchy Online with an extremely low playerbase (I also have a sub there). I'm willing to bet AO's playerbase is way smaller than Vanguard's.
    And still, with financial issues, and a very small team that has to support 3 live games. they keep hanging in there, and releasing content for all of their games.

    You are not Funcom. I very well know that. But if they can do it, I am absolutely sure that you could keep Vanguard going as well. Most of us loyal fans would love plenty of new content, and fixes, etc. but if it comes down to playing a game in maintenance mode, I'd gladly keep my sub up and enjoy what's already there.

    Anet is keeping GW1, Turbine is keeping AC, and they even brought AC2 back, but you can't keep Vanguard up ? Are you serious ?

    In the end, it's your game, and your company, and at this point, it's a done deal, but I believe you lacked the honesty to deal with this matter properly. You could have addressed the community, and say something like "things are not looking good, what could we do about it ? Suggestions are welcome." Instead, it seems you acknowledged the game still had a small playerbase even after the switch to f2p, and decided to "milk" the game as much as possible with special sales and other stuff, to finally come with a "With heavy hearts, we announce the sunset of Vanguard".

    Even if you decided to keep the game running (lol wishful thinking) I believe you burned too many bridges with most fans of the game by now. So I think it's better to just say goodbye, and treasure all the great moments I had playing this game.

    My current sub runs through Jan 2015, and I might play EQ2 a bit more (for every hour I've spent in EQ2 I spent 15 in VG) but I am leaning more towards going back to AO and AoC full time. Yes, I don't like the newer MMOs that much lol. As for my sub, I don't know if I'll renew it, but it doesn't seem likely. Not without Vanguard in the lineup, but who knows ?

    Anyway, I'm out.

    Be safe everyone.
  13. Shalvik New Member

    Well that sucks, I was coming back to re-sub.
  14. John Adams New Member

    I will say again, with the hopes of not angering the Gods, that there is a solution to this tragedy... while I'm not allowed to **** it directly, I will suggest fans of VG:SOH should do a little googling or check out the website in my profile here (if that is visible).
    Kilsin likes this.
  15. eslake New Member

    Yes, and another thing I take issue with.
    Their comments insinuate that the costs of hosting the game are higher than the income generated by the players.

    If that is true, they Need to shut it down, along with every other MMO they have! Then they need to hire someone who has a Clue handle relaunching them all.

    There are Fans out there who are hosting newer games, with much Larger populations on Free 'shards' via VPS and low-end dedicated servers.
    If Sony can't generate a couple of thousand a month from the game, they need to get out of the gaming industry all together.
  16. Dunkel New Member

    Tis a sad day, and sadly for me Vanguard's day ended several years ago. I started in Alpha, through beta and 4 years of live. Had a number of server firsts over the years starting with Hillsbury server. Was the best combat MMORPG I've ever played and I hope that EQN incorporates chains, weakeness, casting while moving etc. I played ever class (3 accounts at peak), leveled 9 to 55 and met some of the best gamers I've ever known. I remember at launch all the noobs crying that the game was too hard, the shouts of "Go back to Wow", the first great nerf that removed much of the racial faction (I killed thousands of mobs just to enter different cities), the original equipment system that allowed you to choose what you used by leaving some other slots empty, the lore rich areas that if you hadn't played in beta you didn't learn the lore after the beta forums were dropped (until much later SOE did fill in some of the missing lore).

    I could go on and on about my love of Vanguard for so many years. Well Met and perhaps future groups await.
    /salute
    Dunkel, Theoequis, Theomedicus, Gimbles, Epiaster, to name a few of my alter egos
  17. Jehlicka Member

    Dear mates from The Second Sun and later from The Lonely Wolf guilds - and of course all of you I have ever met during my VG adventure since early 2008 - you will never be forgotten, there is a special place in my heart for you. I just wanted to let you know before this Forum site is closed as well....I am really proud I had a chance to be member of such a great community! There is no other MMO with so special VG family feeling. Be brave till the last day!
  18. Marikhen New Member

    EVE Online and World of Warcraft ought to be mentioned as well. EVE Online is already 11 years old while World of Warcraft will be there in a few more months, and over the years both have seen significant revisions to the client itself which is, in my experience, one of the biggest issues in playing older MMOs. For that matter CCP has also freely, and publicly, provided quite a bit of information about their ongoing process of increasing server hardware capacity and updating the code to make the game more playable.

    I didn't bother using Blizzard's forums while I played World of Warcraft so I'm not aware of how much information Blizzard might have disclosed about hardware/software upgrades pertaining to their servers, but some comments made by Blizzard staff at least suggest that they do quite a bit to update at least the server code between major expansions.

    As things currently stand between World of Warcraft's massive, if slowly dwindling, player base and EVE Online's steadily, and one hopes perpetually, growing player base they probably provide the best opportunities to see long-term, "full speed" support for an MMO.

    Please note that by "full speed" I mean to make note of how older MMOs tend to fall on the proverbial back burners and go from seeing something like 2 major updates and 6 micro-updates per year to 1 and 2 respectively. It should probably also be noted that CCP recently switched from their two major expansions per year with necessary inter-expansion updates to something like 6 "mini-expansions" per year. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on both enjoyability of the game and retention of players whose play habits would otherwise fall under the cyclic expansion-based subscription trend you see in many MMOs.
    Isoel.2 likes this.
  19. Gizar New Member

    Unreal Sony killed Star Wars Galaxies and now kills the only other game I spent tons of money in. Give the game to another company that can do what this company apparently can not.
  20. BradKoJ New Member

    Well still play VG when I have time too and knowing maybe the last, always wish they did more for the rogue class like maybe needing
    a rogue to disarm a trap or pick a lock to allow a raid or group to get pass a door or area, but still like the pick pocketing skill and what
    you can do with lint, would always keep loads of lint bandages on me. Can remember a time our disc kept dying and other 3 party were
    dead and only me on my rogue and those of you may know the tank of Dirkin I was using my bandages to keep him up till the dragon we
    were fighting was dead. Was a awesome time too.

    Still wish was a way to allow those that bought the game way back then to have a single player version of it, that keeps a source code
    of their already made characters and such. And play it in a single player game and keep their home and banking stuff too. Love my
    home I have on there, put in a lot of work to call it my own.

    Do hope SOE keeps the player's source code if something changes from now to then, will miss my rogue Syrruss and all the fun stuff
    I did with him. hope soe replies to my comment as they never did reply back to me via private message.

    BradKoJ
    Isoel.2 and Enkur like this.

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