Please don't take me the wrong way -- that's not my intent. Based upon my job role when there are problems I tend to try to look solutions for them. Also I am not too much into the roleplay aspect. So let us say if instead of sparkles poop parasites, it was naked Scarlet Johansson would the warriors feel better about AOE tanking them? EDIT: PS: no offense meant to Scarlet either!
Dravid@Telon wrote: My idea process, was to include warriors into the SP category with Pallies and DK's. SP's earned via taking damage. SP's used to bolster abilities. On top of that, I removed all energy and energy requirements from the warrior. Energy based abilities revamped to use HP/Endurance. Base endurance of warrior doubled (still playing with that aspect). I'm sure they'll be all done with their decisions before SOE Live rolls around, though I'll be rolling up a portfolio with my own designs (in general) and VG designs to bring with me. (DK's do need some luvin also though.. more minor tweaks than that of warrior). Mmm oh yeah.. and Hold the Liine isn't hitting the group.. /cheer
theres no point in making another list. the thread started three years ago by athryn still hold true today. the problem is compounded more by pota itemization. graye i wouldnt entertain any ideas of using hp or more endurance for skills unless we get a timer reduction on blood rage AND a reliable way to regenerate hp on our own. otherwise, we still end up with the same problems. i would even go as far to say dks do not need any modifications. what they lack in aggro generation, they more than make up for in survivability. i'm sure you all have heard of the term 'glass cannon.' well the warrior is an example of a glass b-b gun. oh htl does work sometimes, you just need to spam it constantly for it to eventually stick. and don't forget our broken skills. ever since the devs started updating the game, theres been something going wrong starting with the mainhand epic healing mobs to our current problem of not being able to open up finisher attacks. and this is the class soe is offering as free. the joke is definitely on us for putting so mucn time and effort into this class.
Shal wrote: I play all three tanks atm. Pally is by far the single powerhouse. DK is by far the soloist. Warrior has no real niche. I wouldn't muck with pallies at all TBH. Are they a bit OP'd? One could argue yes, though given the boosts to the non-tanking classes, I feel they are where they ought to be, maybe just a tad high on the damage side. For the DK, they have TWO attacks to use in combat. Either two AoE or two single target (base attacks, not crit chains etc..) Their two DD spells are one a 1-2+ minute timer, their two DoTs do a pitiful amount of damage. I probably have one of the highest spell-based DK's out there. In solo mode, I'm running at just under 13khp, ~305 SDF, and 332 INT unbuffed. In the long run.. it is about worthless. It helps some for solo, but not so much in an actual tanking role. Word of Doom hits for 10337 with tanking weap, vs 10712 with Jiharru staff. vs 82k+ from the amount of vexing strike's I can do in the same time frame (all unbuffed). Due to the messed up way that mods are coded, torture out damages Incantation of hate. I'm not saying DK's are close to as bad off as warriors. They do need a bit of tweaking though.. gear optimization is one partial route, some damage/timer/buff tweaks are another. Warriors... Now yes.. there is a big 'ol thread about warrior issues... and a number of Class X has Y so we should have something like that also. Are there valid points? Sure are. I'm not going to re-list them here. The main fault lies within the weapon limitations set upon the three tank classes. Now, I'm not even going there, as what is done is done, and an attempt to revert that now would be ridiculously painful. So yeah... back to my previous post. I didn't go into any real details. I mentioned a few alterations. I didn't even touch on modifications to current abilities besides removing energy costs. Try to imagine something like that of a reverse DC. As you take damage (non-linear amount based on character level so it will scale correctly), you begin to build up rage. as our rage increases, your ability costs decrease and your damage output increases. On top of that, you now can "spend" that rage to do massive amounts of damage at little to no cost, as well as a full out invuln. You could also build your rage prior to engage with a sufficiently long enough cooldown ability. A SMALL amount of this rage would extend to the group as a bonus. Removing energy costs would mean that in fights like Shendu/Zaygius(before we became lvl 55 and can kill him without ever getting the mana drain)/Kotasoth/Apprentice Ednies/Initiate Nenly, and whatever may come in the future... Paladins will be at a slight disadvantage, DK's even more so. Now you have your niche in the tanking world (just like disc's and druids in their roles). Modifying an ability or two, so that there is a form of HP/END regen wouldn't be so difficult. Adding in a stand alone invuln is needed as well. Stay away from gear as a reason for imbalance or a means to balance. Every tank should be able to wear the EXACT same gear, and perform their main and support roles equally (provided they are spec'd properly). Stay away from pure +hate abilities. THESE DO NOT SCALE! Giving you 5k hate at level 50 is nothing compared to the hate generated by the DPS increase of other classes at 55. I've almost completed balancing out 16 tanking professions.. Balancing them all each step of the way.. creating a system where each one is individual, each one has a deficit and a bonus vs given mobs, each one can do their role at the set benchmark. IE: A pally can wtfpwnz an undead mob over a warrior, but a warrior would equally be able to take the hits and hold aggro. Vanguard has a set system in place. It provides a more surgical approach as to not upset the grand balance of things. EverQuest (1 & 2) has had this issue.. well since around 2000. Mostly lower Dev induced favoritism of a class/hatred of another class, resulting in OPing classes and nerfing others to oblivion.. until the next guy got in the chair and things swung the other way to his likings.... The development team needs to create a benchmark as to what the tanks should be doing in terms of aggro generation, DPS, evasion, and mitigation. Each one needs to hit that benchmark in a group setting and raid setting (solo is another beast). From there, you take and modify what you have, in order to better define each class. Situationally, each tank should have a means of outshining the others. For instance.. a DK vs Shylo is ownage. A DK MT on Karax benefits the raid most. A pally vs Kotasoth/Sparkles/Arachnadon/Varking is pure win. A warrior... they don't have that "My time to shine" feeling. This doesn't mean, give them pally/DK abilities so they can perform those tasks. It doesn't mean, jack them up to be the end all be all of tanks. It means they need something to distinguish themselves. I could drone on for ages.. Athryn's thread is decent, it doesn't come close enough as to what really needs to be done. All three tanks need to be set out next to each other and dealt with appropriately.
Oh.. and that whole rage thing.... that came almost directly from one of my class designs. I don't expect to be feeding the forums with many more details about how they can use similar thought processes to generate equality within the game. There is a little freebie insight, maybe they can use it, maybe they can't. It is a way of thinking about things that matters, more than just the absolute specifics.
the warrior having no real niche is only a small part of the problem. you may say that its a bad idea to use gear as a means/reason to balance but that is quite imposssible as current gear setup is the exact reason why there is such a huge disparity among the three classes. i'm not saying current gear has to be changed. what i'm saying is that the current end game gear does a great job of bring out class design flaws, the biggest flaw being survivability. the only reason warriors can stand in front of a raid target is because of heavy armor. the class has absolutely no survivability. the supposed trade off for this is higher dps. in theory thats prefectly fine, i'm trading one thing for another. but is this reality? he|| no. thanks to current gear, paladins and dks are only slightly below the warrior in terms of raw dps, not including +hate modifiers. and their survivability increases because of better gear. there is no distinct separation like there is when it comes to aoe tanking. and so when theres no big distinction in dps, of course a 40% mod will be superior to a 30% mod. an element you mentioned, rage, assumes that any given tank will be taking hits. while thats true, why would anyone who is looking for efficiency put a class with the least survivability in a main tanking role? Against heals, taps, invulns, dmg shields, etc a warrior can't compare. even in evasion stats, a warrior has an advantage in parry, but when combined with blocking, its still overshadowed by the paladin and dk. a build of rage that decreases my endurance costs and increases my damge is nice for a dps check, but really does not solve the problem for the raid in general because dps should not be my primary concern. it only seems like that now because thats all we have as a class to maintain control. maybe if rage build up increased my mitigation and evasion abilities (dodge, block, parry) it would be good, but a straight up boost in damage does not solve the problem. Paladins and dks can do just enough damage to control the target while giving healers some leway when it comes to taking damage. as a raiding warrior, i'm not saying a warrior has to have more damage in order to be a viable tank. what i am asking for is the same flexibility that paladins and dks offer a raid in terms of mob control and healing. you can have less than stellar healing or even account for lag problems when you have a paladin or a dk as the main tank. if the healers arent spot on every single time for a warrior main tank, theres only so much I can do before i die and possibly cause a wipe. with all the stuff you mentioned it seems like you're proposing a revamp of all three classes. i don't know if the current situation requires such a drastic measure, but it does require some changes, most of them to the warrior class specifically.
Shal wrote: A damage shield isn't survivability Heals and taps.. well ok. DK's have Cull. Besides that, there is an AoE tap, which takes 35 (?) endurance, and Harrow if you shadowstep the mob. It wasn't until post 50 that a tap component got added to their crit chain. Warriors have one ability to use for healing.. it just needs alteration to be viable. I did make mention of adding in other abilities (or maybe I didn't copy those portions over) to compensate for using hp/end over energy. I also made mention of getting a proper invuln to warriors.. not some clicky sword that won't let you heal or attack. I don't see boosting a Warrior's mitigation. All tanks are equal when it comes to mitigating hits right now. I also don't see how 4% block is make-or-break to the tanking classes, especially when the warrior ability increases mitigation. Rune.. DK's have a 25% rune they can put up for 4 hits, Pallies have a counter which does the same. Warriors have Mountainous Barrier, which just needs a timer tweak due to FT changes in 2007. They also have Raise defenses, which just needs to be made to work properly on all damge form. I just don't see where they have the "least survivability" with the exception of an adequate means to regen HP.
of course if you adjust the abilites suvivability becomes a non issue. thats the point of my posts. people have been asking for a lot of these changes but have been ignored for the past 3 years.
Shal wrote: Pretty sure the warrior thread doesn't make mention of a lot of this stuff. It wants a change to Grim Determination and Raise Defenses, and it wants an invuln (which they should have). It does complain about supposed "useless" abilities. The key portion overlooked, is that these abilities are for use when class X, Y or Z isn't in your group. As for the 40% vs 30% hate thing.. yeah, it is 10% difference. I'd give up 40% hate to get my mit and block bonuses in offensive stance on the DK.. A DK in offensive stance generates WAAAAY more hate than one in defensive.. doing the exact same things.
are you looking at the same thread i am? athryn, faf, miach, etc etc all ask for better survivability, better +hate, and more dps. at this point i'd settle for 2/3. and there ARE a bunch of skills that are useless or have very limited use. for example does ironfoe even work on non-trash mobs? and how many different rescues do i need with the force taunt debuff? charge? do i need 75% run speed? stinging cut line? if these two skills were somehow available to use WITH the decimate line in defensive stance, then it would be useful. etc etc if you want to give up your 40% mod i'll be more than happy to take it.
Shal wrote: If Stinging Cut is blocking Decimate.. there is something wrong with the end level of decimate. It works just fine on my new warrior.
no i mean if stinging cut can be used with decimate instead of being forced to choose between the two.
Shal wrote: *edited* So yeah, you do have to pick one or the other.. but that is no different than any critical chain. It is no different than DK's not using Incantation of Hate/Tortue because they do less dmg/hate than using Vexing strike. Not saying it doesn't deserve modification, but then so do other classes' abilities.
