Tank Balance

Discussion in 'Protective Fighters' started by Schiller, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Schiller Well-Known Member

    I know a lot is going on right now, and there are some big problems the devs are working on--like the lag. That is why I have been waiting patiently without bringing this subject back up again. Still, seeing as how class balance IS being addressed right now (Druid), I felt it was appropriate to ask this question:

    Are you really finished with tank balance?? Please tell me that you are not. Like I have said before, I feel tank balance is getting as close as it has been in a very long time, but the job isn't quite finished yet! Don't stop now and leave the job unfinished! You are very close to having the classes very well-balanced! Please finish!

    Let me explain. When I see two or more equally geared tanks of different classes working hard on a mob, and I see aggro switching around between them, that is a good sign that the classes are well-balanced. It means that each tank is making roughly equivalent aggro, and the occasional big hit is enough to make aggro change between them. I don't think any tank would disagree with this.

    I have the opportunity to see all three tank classes, fairly equally geared (T3, epic, all aug slots that affect dmg and aggro creation filled appropriately with orange augs, RoRR, RoE, Absolute Dev. etc. very good weapons from end-game raid mobs) go head-to-head on mobs on a very regular basis, and here is what I have observed:

    When equally geared tanks of all three classes go-for-broke on a mob, inevitably I will see aggro pop back-and-forth between the Paladin and the Warrior, indicating to me that these two classes are fairly well balanced against each other. It is a very competitive fight for aggro you will see between these two. You will never see the DK pull aggro off either of these two other classes, not at all. This is not based on one occurrence, but on seeing this match-up week-after-week, every week since the changes were made to Warriors and Paladins.

    I am not asking you for something that will take a lot of time or effort. The DK does not need a huge overall. We just need a boost to bring us within range of the other two tanks. I would suggest changing the cooldown on Hatred Incarnate from its current ridiculously long cooldown of 10 minutes to 3 minutes--the same cooldown as Zeal. This one change may or may not be enough, but I know it will not be too much, and it would be quick and easy to simply change the cooldown with no other changes and let us give it a try.

    C'mon guys, give us this one thing and let us try it. Let's finish what we started!

    Salute,

    Schiller
  2. dravid Well-Known Member

    hey Schiller, You see today's patch notes?
    It's more of a quick fix I suppose.

    >> Dread Knight: Armor of Darkness stance will now generate 50% hate per attack instead of 40%.
    Kilsin likes this.
  3. Schiller Well-Known Member

    Wow, I did not see that! Haven't made it into game yet today! That is great news--can't wait to try it out!
    Thanks!
  4. Tralyan Active Member

    Haven't played a DK before, so I don't know - but do they have any Force Taunts? Warriors have 2 that I know of, at least at my warriors level of 35. Paladins - while I have a lvl 25 Paladin, I don't recall anything about their aggro capabilities except a lack of AoE taunting, (Correct me if I'm wrong on that).

    I'm not saying your data is incorrect or anything - but perhaps trying to create a more controlled experiment, making sure no force taunts were used, and on predictable mobs, for example, would be a good way to present this data. *shrug* Just me spouting stuff, is all. Again, I'm not disputing your claims. Everything I've heard from others has pretty much been in-line with your claim the Warriors and Paladins got a boost, while DK's got the shaft.

    I recall, last time I played VG for any amount of time, that Warriors were the one getting the shaft, and DK's were the gods of VG tanks (Hopefully I'm not thinking of a different MMO here). Having a hard time wrapping my head around this new environment. =D
  5. Schiller Well-Known Member

    A very oversimplified history in a nutshell would go something like this:

    Long long ago, the nerf-bat got loose and pummelled the warrior class very badly, but the DK took a few swings as well.
    ~some time passes~
    Devs decide to do class updates, and Paladin gets lots of dev lovin, but devs are pulled away before DK and Warrior get an update. Paladin becomes the Alpha tank.
    ~a lot of time passes~
    Warrior gets an update and Paladin is toned down slightly. Warrior and Paladin now closely balanced. DKs get worried.
    ~Just today, DK gets a boost in Defensive stance aggro production~
    Haven't tested the new changes yet, but am very happy to see movement toward finishing the class balancing!

    I made the above post as soon as I got into the new forums, before I had read the update notes for the latest patch. There was no doubt about the comparison I claimed at that time. It had nothing whatsoever to do with force taunts--just the raw aggro production by one tank of each class, all geared to the teeth. The mobs in question were predictable mobs we killed in raid over and over and over the last year--none that used aggro wipes, curses, or anything that would affect the outcome. All three tanks have force taunts, and anyone who has played one knows when a force taunt is used as it shows up on the debuff bar as a force-taunt immunity of 30 seconds duration.

    Warriors do have the best AOE taunt. DKs have an AOE rescue force taunt, but it requires a defensive target to work.
    ***Edit*** Forgot to add that yes, all three tanks do have multiple force taunts, including DKs.
  6. Hydrazine Member

    I was MT on Karaxx tonight. A much lesser geared warrior pulled aggro twice. It was at about 55%, so it was when I was backed out but I hadnt been for long, I should have had some major aggro. I would say this 10% increase is a good start and I am sure we will all see soon how much of a difference it will make but I have a feeling it isnt quite enough. I do appreciate the love from the dev team though, everything helps.
  7. Shal Active Member

    this blanket raise on the def mod is really dumb. the warrior .45 mod was lazy and so is this .50 change.

    i mean if the devs are going to go back and look at individual skills and tweak those, then i'd be fine but this just seems like another band aide. intsead of learning how to tank ie making macros, pushing when you have to, back off when you have to, etc etc its all part of learning the class.

    i just feel like now all you have to do is roll your face on the keyboard and presto you can tank!
  8. Tralyan Active Member

    I'd say that tanking, by its nature in VG, is more complex and just downright harder then any other MMO I've played since EQ. The classes may not be the most complex - that may be so - but the act of tanking itself is, most definitely. I have spent most of my time on MMO's, since 99', as a tank. EQ2 was fun, and at the beginning of the game, had its challenges. However, as many of us know, it became dumbed down like so many MMO's before it. My most recent stint as a tank has been a Warden in Lord of the Rings On-line. The *Raids* were decently tough, especially at higher tiers, but the group content was, especially with mildly decent gear, a joke. What Lotro DID have was an excellent tanking mechanic with their Warden, and one that took more tanking *skill* to use then I've seen before on an MMO. It is no understatement for me to claim that it was, by far, the funnest class of any profession I have ever played on any MMO.

    Sadly, Vanguard is an old game, with a fairly old and used mechanic. At the time, these chains, and finisher moves, may have been innovative, but that is no longer the case. I feel like the only way to really increase the difficulty of tanking is to increase the complexity of the class as a whole. Frankly, I'd be ok with that - though I know many, MANY others gnash their teeth at the mere mention of it.

    But, I'll say again, tanking as a JOB in Vanguard is still the most fun I've had in a long time. It has been a while since I've had to actually watch out for random pathers, turn the mobs to help my group mates not get hit by frontal AoE's while still rotating to make sure I have no adds coming from behind. Being aware of my and other peoples Lvl and the increased aggro range that could result from it, having to watch Mana bars, and actually (and this is HUGE to me) having to SWITCH targets during the fight to grab random mobs. AoE taunts I have, but not in the abundance or strength that I had gotten used to from other MMO's. And doing this all, and more, while maintaining a pace that the group is happy with, because lets face it, your average MMO player has the attention span of a mouse and starts getting antsy if you wait in one spot for longer then a tenth of a second. Not too mention, it can often be a thankless job.

    So, in closing, that was my long winded way of saying I agree with Shal - to a point. If you wish to keep tanks interested, increase the complexity of the class. Have THAT be the reason tanking is hard. Do NOT make tanking hard because our skills just don't match up with the requirements of the content.

    Regards'
  9. Kilsin Well-Known Member

    Like others have said, it's a nice start but this does not bring us up to par with the Pally and Warrior, I hope this is just a quick bandaid until they can give DKs a revamp properly.
  10. Filzin Well-Known Member

    Lol. Did you say this following the warrior increase from 30% to 45%? Hate mod is probably the easiest thing to tweak. It doesn't take away from the skill of the class in the least (or skew damage), it just means that the things you do now to maximise your hate generation will work 10% better than before.

    I'm sure DK's will try to provide honest feedback to the Dev team based off their observations, much like the other two classes have done along the way.

    Devs, thanks for this.
    Schiller, Kilsin and Ghostchild like this.
  11. Himminy Active Member

    Tanking Lessson:
    I'd also like to state, that FT's dont always work. Some people seem to think they're a quick save all button. They're not. A force taunt only worked if the mob is STILL on you AFTER it's done. Sure it will stick to you for the 3-10sec (max! Depending on ability) it says it will (IF it even lands!) but it didn't do it's job, and that was ripping the mob off another person and making them stay on you. Sometimes a few seconds is all you need to kill the mobs, and that gives you the illusion that it had worked, but the mob would have gone back to smacking that sorc as soon as the invuln popped up. The FT is supposed to give everyone time to adjust their aggro. And you won't know if that worked until after the mob is allowed to choose between whose pissing it off the most!

    In short unless someone used the FT on the last 3-10 seconds of the mobs life, the FT arguement is MOOT.
    DPS: "Force Taunts don't count!"
    ME: "They do if they stick!"
  12. dravid Well-Known Member

    Paladins actually didn't become alpha after their revamp. They ran with 45% block vs other 65% from the other two tanks till the level cap was increased. Players who started working on SOD before the level cap would clearly know what I am referring to. That is where the cloak of blocking was born from.

    Second reason is the 2h epic.
  13. Tralyan Active Member

    Don't worry, I understand the mechanic of force taunts. I was merely saying as a reply to the prior post, that if your measurement of aggro balance is how often a mob turns from tank to tank via aggro, then making sure force taunts aren't a part of the equation would be the way to go ...as that would effectively make the mob in question go from tank to tank. It was then replied that this mechanic was not an issue in his experiments, and that is was in fact a more controlled and predictable experiment then I'd thought. To which I conceded. But thanks for the lesson.

    To be honest, I'm not a fan of force taunts either. The only time I use them is if a mob I am currently not targeted on suddenly turns around and, say, beats on a cleric. Switch target, FT, then build aggro ..which DOES actually make that FT work as an effective means of grabbing and keeping aggro. However, it is a boring and uninspired mechanic, and one I wish they would do away with. If I have to use a Force Taunt on my current target - the target of assist - then I feel like I haven't done my job.
  14. Moorgard Developer

    To be clear, the change this week wasn't to just wash our hands and walk away. As was mentioned, this was just one very obvious knob that we adjusted. We want to keep an eye on things and see the impact of this adjustment.

    Your feedback is appreaciated. :)
  15. Schiller Well-Known Member

    Thank you Moorgard! Been away for a few days, but I am sure I will get to test this soon!
  16. Schiller Well-Known Member

    Remind me to never play one of my alts in a group you are tanking for! o_O
  17. Shal Active Member

    the groups i tank in do just fine.
  18. Aradrin New Member

    Thanks for the answer Moorgard, I'll try and see how it does change things (as most of us will I wager). Tonight's a raid night for me.

    To contribute a bit, before warriors were changed, I've had difficulties to take aggro back from them when fighting for it, and it usually took a burn with Hatred Incarnate to do so...
    Since their change, it's near impossible, maybe it's related to my skill as a tank, or theirs but my comparison is based on the same players, and the same targets. Now, even with a burst of damage (hatred incarnate, starspark, rune of damage, sometimes QJ, and such), I just plainly can't do it.
    Can't compare much with paladin as I don't see much of them but they rarely lose aggro when we see them.

    What I see in the DK is a very survivable tank who can take on multiple mobs, and has an aggro that builds up over time unless he burns everything he has (and cooldown on Hatred Incarnate is a major issue here). This is the spirit I agree with, but it needs a bit of tweaking.

    Some things that should be looked at imo:
    • Symbols (Despair is useless as it is in my eyes)
    • DoTs (Torture, Incatation of Hate and Hexes) are maybe underpowered, this should be concentrated on smaller amount of time (with lower cooldown for Incantation of Hate), or the damage/hate upgraded
    • Words of Doom are supposed to be our ultimate spell and still, it usually does less than Bane, maybe an upgrade on that post-50 ?
    • DC generation is still an issue, maybe adding something akin to a DC over time spell (not how Epic already helps, I only am on 5 parts bonus from PotA so far, but DC still swings a lot up and down and it takes a second to put it from 5 to 1 when it takes several hits/spells to bring it back up, which is as much we don't use for aggro)

    That's all I see for now, but there must some things I missed.
    Dosi likes this.
  19. thorthoradain New Member

    ooh god here we go again on how the dk sucks. Here why not try this DK learn how to play your DK then come here and ***** till then all you guys sound like a bunch of little school girls
  20. Tralyan Active Member

    You addition to the conversation is well put together, well punctuated, well considered, and over all a big help in getting issues resolved.

    Keep'em coming, chief! o_O

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